ideas

[Nortaneous]

I think we shouldn't ingore Nortaneous' levels, even though the second one required some bomber timing and had a trap somewhat hidden before the exit, I think the idea was nicely hidden within the terrain. For the first one, my solution is probably a backroute, as I go through the ceiling without bombers and save 8/10.

Yeah, that'd be a backroute. Looking at that level now, I really don't like it, but if I ever put it in a levelpack I'll raise the ceiling first.

The bomber timing in the second one isn't as bad in the solution I had in mind; I try to avoid bomber timing unless the bombers are climbing and the margin of error is increased.

[Clam]

whenever I tried to make a level, I'd either end up with a demonstration of the trick rather than an actual puzzle, or a puzzle that would be okay but takes way too many pixel-perfect skill placements.

To show you what I mean, here's an example of each.

"Mental Block" is a demonstration (and, I'm sure you'll agree) a pretty neat one at that. But the level practically solves itself. It's the sort of thing you'd see in the Level Design Game, rather than a Lemmix levelpack.

"Now (ab)use miners and climbers" is a puzzle, and then some. But by my count (i.e. unless there's a backroute), there are 17 skill assignments that require exact placement. That's simply not fun, unless you have a frame-advance tool like ccexplore's modified LemmixPlayer (plus full knowledge of miner glitches of course http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />).

Both levels also show another bad habit of mine - I tend to get carried away with aesthetics before I've finished making the level. This makes it difficult to make changes to important parts of the level, since I'd then have to redo the decorations. It's not really difficult to change things around in Lemmix - it's more of a "mental block" http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> - but it does hold me back at times. Then again, this may be unavoidable - if you release a boring-looking but functional level, people will complain that it "needs decoration"; if you make a nice-looking level, you risk having to redecorate it if someone finds a backroute. Maybe that's another topic entirely. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

"Mental Block" is a demonstration (and, I'm sure you'll agree) a pretty neat one at that. But the level practically solves itself. It's the sort of thing you'd see in the Level Design Game, rather than a Lemmix levelpack.

I guess the worst critics are always ourselves. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I still find it enjoyable to solve the level.  Yes, I guess it's more like a level design game outcome, and true, there aren't a lot of other plausible non-solutions to try.  But I still did find myself thinking at least a little in solving the puzzle, and if anything it's much less trial and error than how I did your "panic room".  The key idea may not be new but as you said, it's a pretty neat demonstration, very elegant visually and logically.

I would argue that this level can very reasonably be placed in the early part of a levelset not aimed at people with expert knowledge of glitches and other detailed game-mechanics knowledge.  It is a level in a levelset that you might consider replacing with something else if you do come up with something far better, but still a worthy keeper if you don't. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

As for that other level, I have to admit your own description is not helping. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> I haven't even looked at it yet but will at least do that at some later time.  I hope the solution is at least as epic as some of the challenge solutions we've seen, even if it's unavoidably horrendous to execute.

[Simon]

Yeah, Mental Block is a great level. I solved it after thinking about it for a short while, which is a fresh difference -- usually, geoo is first in figuring out level solutions.

geoo (while thinking how to save a basher): I can also lead them into the machine! (the grinding wheel trap)
geoo: Maybe I should sleep over it.
geoo: What a lame butt. (the basher)
geoo: Now my timing is for the butt.
geoo: Oooh! I'll save even more! (than the 12 of 16). Naaah, maybe not. Stop! STOP, you bums!

Alright, now he has saved 13 out of 16, and has a basher left. Well done! Clam, go find && fix backroute! geoo can give you the lemmix replay, or link it in IRC if you don't find the backroute yourself.

-- Simon

[Clam]

I guess the worst critics are always ourselves. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I still find it enjoyable to solve the level. [...]

Well, I prefer for the challenge to be in finding a solution, not executing it. The best levels are those that keep you guessing for a while. But if the level is fun enough as it is (hard to say myself, since I made the thing http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />), then maybe it's best not to force it to be something different.

I do wonder if my patented (http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />) lemming-merging device could be useful in other levels. I'm quite proud of it http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />. I've been toying with this level for ages, and that little contraption really made the whole level come together.

edit: oops, dumb backroute, will fix soon http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

It doesn't actually sound like a backroute to me.  Doesn't the level allow for <removed to avoid unnecessary hints> if you so choose?  Here, let me describe my solution:

Bomb after everyone has come out.  One lemming bash while you set everyone else to be a blocker.  Now, if you are really good with the timing, as the blockers are released one by one, I can conceive that you might be able to get them to all end up in sync, or at least close enough, so that after they all end up in the second "compression pit" and is later released via 2nd bomber, they all go in the same direction as the direction they went after the first bombing.  This would then allow you to only set a blocker at the bottom-most platform on just one end rather than both ends (saving one more lemming), and to only do lower bashing on one of the two halves (using one less basher).  But if you don't want to bother with that, you still have enough skills to pass the level saving 12/16.

In the meanwhile, maybe I will take a second look and see if I could backroute the level after all. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" /> I did try a few things first but none succeeded.

[edit: haha, yeah I think I see what they might've done http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />]

[finlay]

Is this the backroute? (Again, I can't play lemmix replays on my computer at the moment)

Basically, bombing before you reach the pit in such a way that he breaks out of the pit but not through the floor. Bomber timing. I didn't actually manage to finish the level because I ended up using too many blockers, but this at least seems likely.

[geoo]

Ok, I just realized why I was missing a basher in 'Mental Blockade' at first: I assigned the bomber to some lemming in the middle (instead of the last or the first lemming), and therefore the group split up and one half went left and the other half went right at the start. That's pretty much the only reason I searched for an alternative solution, resulting in the backroute.
Very nicely designed level (both aesthetically and solution-wise), and it took me quite a bit of thought, though that might be attributed to a notable portion to the fact that my lemmings went both left and right at the beginning, because without that, the basic idea yields the full solution pretty directly I guess.

'Now (ab)use miners and climbers' turned into a hardcore glitch and grind fest, but it was very satisfying to finally solve it.

[Clam]

Here, let me describe my solution:

Considering the difficulty and tedium in doing all that just to save one more lemming, I think I'll leave that in. It doesn't take away from the level like these other backroutes do.

Is this the backroute?

That's a backroute. It should be easily fixed by shifting a few platforms (in particular, shifting the bottom of the second holding cell up by one). Solving the level from that point should be easy. The backroute is much more obvious than these two...

Ok, I just realized why I was missing a basher in 'Mental Blockade' at first: I assigned the bomber to some lemming in the middle (instead of the last or the first lemming), and therefore the group split up and one half went left and the other half went right at the start.

Hmm, somehow I forgot that was even possible. But since it doesn't actually cause the backroute (only lead inquisitive minds to find one, if it exists), it's not a major issue. What it might do, however, is confuse players to think the lemmings are supposed to split up like that, and make the level appear unsolvable. Seems unlikely though. *shrugs*

'Now (ab)use miners and climbers' turned into a hardcore glitch and grind fest, but it was very satisfying to finally solve it.

Oh wow, someone actually solved it. Good job http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />. It's not the same as my solution (which is attached, in case anyone's curious), but it's still hardcore glitchy enough for my liking http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />. The point of the level is getting a lemming across the top to the exit, by whatever means (which will invariably involve miner glitches). Good job working in the climber-overhang glitch as well, even I didn't manage to do that http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[finlay]

I just solved it using the backroute but slightly different: you can bomb in the second holding cell in such a way that the lemmings can walk through a widened hole in the top of the cell and not die from the fall. You should be able to remove the backroute by taking out the two floating platforms beneath the holding cell that are separated by 1 pixel. Sorry, but I didn't take a screeny this time. Should have.

[Clam]

^ No need to worry, I've got that covered. The attached level should fix the backroutes (aside from the minor one ccexplore mentioned).

I can't remove those platforms - they're an essential component of the Lemming Merging Device (TM) http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

Oh wow, someone actually solved it. Good job http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />. It's not the same as my solution (which is attached, in case anyone's curious), but it's still hardcore glitchy enough for my liking http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />. The point of the level is getting a lemming across the top to the exit, by whatever means (which will invariably involve miner glitches). Good job working in the climber-overhang glitch as well, even I didn't manage to do that http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Nicely efficient way for getting through the second pillar, didn't see this one.
I also used the glitch you used at the start (blocking miner during mid-stroke to glitch through floor while leaving it intact) at some point for the lower central pillar (at its top), but mining cleanly through it turned out more efficient.
Pretty elegantly used there at the start. And I somehow didn't manage to send 2 over the second gap when I sent only 3 there to start with, you're pretty efficient.