Cheapo Level Pak topic

[Proxima]

I'm only up to the end of Tricky, but I too am enjoying the levels so far. I think Tricky 19 is rather too hard for its position.

By far my favourite is Tricky 28, which I can see has a couple of solutions. I wonder, which was your preferred solution? Mine is: bomb the second link in the chain at its top-right and bottom-left. Make a builder to overhang the link so that the 12th brick comes above the remaining part of the link, so the lemmings fall into the link and turn round -- while the builder is doing this delay the next few lemmings with builds.

However, the one level I cannot do so far is Tricky 10. Please give me some clues on this one! It's driving me mad!

[Conway]

Which reminds me, you didn't find Taxing 25 and Mayhem 4 to be troublesome???

  I didn't mention those levels. They were fairly difficult, but I managed to do them in no more than about six tries each.

[Conway]

However, the one level I cannot do so far is Tricky 10. Please give me some clues on this one! It's driving me mad!

Clue: (in case you didn't know) a lemming can exit by falling into the exit even from a height that would normally kill him.

[Proxima]

Aargh! Damn it, of course I knew that! I just never thought of applying it to that level........

Done now, anyway. So that's all of Fun and Tricky complete now. Thanks for the hint.........

[DragonsLover]

There's a mistake in Cheapo: Fake objects don't work!

In the levels of Peter, the level Taxing 24 have a fake exit, but that works! I guess it's an error of the game.

[Conway]

Some levels actually have errors in them that were introduced during the conversion process. They are:
Taxing 12, 23 and 24, and Mayhem 4 and 13. Two of those levels had fake exits, which don't seem to work at all, so I removed them.

I updated a new version of the set files to the same locataion: <Download here>

Cool! I've just downloaded it and tried the altered levels.

  Taxing 12 'You might as well quite now'. - The right-hand exit doesn't need to be fake, since there's no way to get to it anyway. (Please tell me if I'm wrong!)

  Taxing 23 'Teach a new trick to an old lemming' - I didn't see a fake exit here. The level seems unchanged (and still easy as hell!). ::

  Taxing 24 'Attacked by lemmings' - Cool! Now it's just as much fun as 'Actual insanity'!

  Mayhem 4 'Having a blast' - Hmmm . . . Before, I just got the left-hand lemmings into the left-hand exit. Getting them into the right one instead will take some more thought.

  Mayhem 13 'Surrounded by fakeness' - Still very easy!

[guest]

&#A0;Cool! I've just downloaded it and tried the altered levels.<snip>

I guess I should mention that I was the one who "playtest" Essman's levels for compatibility issues.  I originally helped him get started by automating the more boring aspects of conversions (opening each level file and resave them, assign correct music to them, etc.)  I didn't plan to playtest the levels, but I enjoy them enough that I ended up going through them all.

I specifically only looked for compatability (conversion) issues, meaning solutions which either only works in the new version or only in the old version.  And actually, I really only did half the job, since the old version of Cheapo kept crashing when I exit, so I mostly avoided running that program unless absolutely necessary.

So what I ended up doing is to look for levels where after the conversion, I can see routes which I know couldn't be possible in the old version.  Mostly this just means there are routes that goes up into the "ceiling", which isn't possible because in the old version a level's maximum height is 20% lower than the new version.  This covered 2 of the levels here (you figure out which ones and how).  And of course I discovered about the fake exit problem on one of the levels where it is obvious, so that covered Taxing 23.

Mayhem 4 was contraversial.  I complained about it because I felt that only solution viable in the converted version would be too hard to execute on the old version of Cheapo, which keep in mind does not have features like singling out individual lemmings, right clicking, arrow clicking, etc.  As such, I argued that I don't believe the only viable solution in the new version was the intended solution in the old version, since it would lead to a level early in the Mayhem set whose difficulty would be quite out of place.  I pointed out a solution which is possible in the old version but impossible in the new version (before this update).  It's not exactly the solution you would expect to be an "intended solution", but it is interesting enough. plus it requires less precision, that I suggested that it could be either be intended or unintended, leaving Essman to answer (I have a feeling he doesn't even remember what the intended solution is).

He ended up making the old-version only solution also possible in the new version.  However, to make it possible in the new version, as a side effect the solution will also become a bit more obvious unfortunately.  That was his decision though.

So in summary, I hate to disappoint you but you'll probably find Mayhem 4 easier rather than harder now.  But understand that the change makes some sense from a compatibility point of view.  (And the solution that used to work before the update should still work by the way, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.)

If you believe my arguments above resulted from yet another solution which I have overlooked and am willing to divulge in e-mail, feel free to do so and I'll consider its compatibility and update Essman accordingly.

Finally, I never even bothered to check for fake exits in Mayhem 13 apparently.  I never raised any issues on that level to Essman and so he changed that level on his own.  I have to say I'm not entirely sure whether removing those fake exits is the greatest idea, since it also eliminates two areas where you would otherwise try your digging/bashing on.  But I guess ultimately there is no good way to convert this level with 100% compatability if fake exits can't be done in the current Cheapo.

I'm aware of the fact that there's a way to easily access any of the 3 exits without bothering too much with the real and fake steel pieces.  But since this works with both the old and new version I decided that from compatibility's standpoint it wasn't an issue for my concern.

----------------

And so in summary that's why the changes were made.  Again I stress that I specifically only deal with compatibility, to make the converted levels as similar to the original levels as possible.  Backroutes which work in both old and new are outside my scope.  (And on the flip side, some of the "incompatible routes" which I suggested Essman to eliminate are often trickier than the intended solution, but I focused on compatibility, and apparently Essman consented since I clearly pointed out to him the relative difficulties and he still chose to eliminate them.)  You may of course take backroute issues to Essman yourself if you want.

[Essman]

By far my favourite is Tricky 28, which I can see has a couple of solutions. I wonder, which was your preferred solution?

Click here for my solution.

[Essman]

I think Tricky 19 is rather too hard for its position.

Yes, it might be too hard for where it is. But I found that it has an interesting solution, I'm not sure if it's the original intended solution.

[Essman]

Levels that I thought were a little too easy for their place in the game include Taxing 18 'Quote: That's a crazy level', Taxing 22 'More tremolo blooz', Taxing 23 'Teach a new trick to an old lemming', ... I know you probably made these levels a whle ago, but please tell me (here or by pm) what your intended solutions are to these.

Here are three of the levels so far (and screenshots of my solution):
Taxing 18 - I'm not sure if this is my original intended solution, but it is close.
Taxing 22 - I don't know what the deal is with this level, it is way too easy. I think the original intended solution was harder, but it doesn't matter since the easy solution is obvious.
Taxing 23 - I'd like to see the very easy solution that everyone seems to have found except for me. I think the screenshot is of my original intended solution. I like that solution.

[Essman]

Levels that I thought were a little too easy for their place in the game include ... Mayhem 7 'Quote: What a titanic level!', Mayhem 9 'Essentially the same', Mayhem 13 'Surrounded by fakeness', and Mayhem 16 'Hold on to your ego'. I know you probably made these levels a whle ago, but please tell me (here or by pm) what your intended solutions are to these.

I don't remember my original solution to mayhem 16, your guess is as good as mine. Here are the rest:

Mayhem 7 - Actually I don't know if I originally solved it this way, probably not. Seemed pretty easy, but still fun.
Mayhem 9 - Raise the release rate and don't dig with every dude. You surely did it this way.
Mayhem 13 (no screenshot) - Just find the fake metal blocks, and if you see three exits, only the right-most one was supposed to be real.

[guest]

SPOILER ALERT

Taxing 18 - I'm not sure if this is my original intended solution, but it is close.

I think most people would've just make multiple builds on the left side so everyone can fall down safely, completely bypassing the right side.  Perhaps you should reduce/eliminate certain skills?

Taxing 23 - I'd like to see the very easy solution that everyone seems to have found except for me. I think the screenshot is of my original intended solution. I like that solution.

Oh, how sad.  The easy solution is to just bomb away the thin column.  Looks like you should revise that level.

Now I understand why you choose to cap the ceiling on this level when I pointed it out.

[guest]

Taxing 22 - I don't know what the deal is with this level, it is way too easy. I think the original intended solution was harder, but it doesn't matter since the easy solution is obvious.

(SPOILERS)
Perhaps the original intended solution doesn't use the stopper?  I certainly didn't need it.

If that's not challenging enough, then in addition to removing the stopper, move the one-way hill to the right so the right-hand side of it touches the steel.

[Proxima]

Click here for my solution.

Oh, very nice!

[Conway]

Guest, as for Mayhem 4 'Having a blast' - Before the left-hand exit was made fake, I just built across to the lower block to save the right-hand lemmings, and got a climber from the right-hand set to climb and bomb the ceiling to the right, then send over another climber and block before the end of the platform. Then I zig-zagged up to the hole made in the ceiling and the crowd fell to join the blocker. Then I got one to mine near the metal wall to the left to fall to the level of the left-hand exit. I don't suppose this is the intended solution, since now that exit is unusable.

  The problem is, that solution used all the builders, so I guess I'm supposed to exit through the floor instead. This'll be tricky (please tell me if I'm on the right path!)

  Essman, I didn't know about the fake steel pieces in 'Surrounded by fakeness'. Here's what I did: 1 and 2