Cheapo Level Pak topic

[ccexplore]

Just passed 7. Great level Saved only 22/25 though. I guess that ccexplore's 23rd lemming is just a matter of timing... (Unless he used a different solution &#A0;O_o )

Actually, it's probably more likely that my solution is a backroute.  It's not particularly timing sensitive, and the only bit of timing-sensitive move wouldn't make a difference in terms of how many you'd save.

This level is a LemEdit remake. Maybe the differences render the intentional solution impossible? I have absolutely no ideas for that level anymore, since you seem to need both bombers to bomb through just one area... hmm...

Well, that thought had definitely crossed my mind too, but since on later remake levels such as #8 geom88 talked about how a trick in CustLemm doesn't work in Cheapo, it would seem that he's aware of the potential differences.

At this point the one solution I can think of requires one more bomber than given and one less number to save.

[ccexplore]

Some tricky levels indeed. &#A0;I did manage to get #7 (actually a 23/25 there) and #9 though, of the ones you mentioned above.

I've also gotten #8 now (still haven't read any hints yet).  Turns out I was making it more complicated than it actually needs be.  I'm not sure I'd really call anything there a trick, but neat level nonetheless.

[Adam]

I'm going to reduce it to 75, mainly to keep up the quality. Did you all miss me?

Just an update from me. I've managed to get a few more done but due to an unexpected event which turned my life upside-down I've not been able to do many. I'm going to make the predicted date for release September 15th.

[geoo]

I've only got to level 2, and I've glanced at the rest of the levels (Except 9, I think you know why ). Some very good levels there, It's way better than my first pack (Isulemms, see sig).

I'm hoping to release the second part of my Style Trial on Thursday. I have about 18 levels for that so far (48 total). Only seven more to go!
And I think I've neglected the readme/walkthrough for it for far too long.

Thanks, I played Isulemms a bit some time ago and I think trey're not bad; just some levels are a bit too large to my taste. For now, I played Insane Steve's levels very much and just a few levels of other sets. I played Style Trial I (I think you should know since I mentioned the backdoor for Lemmings' Ark; I now also play some genesis levels emulated and I think the backdoor might be possible too, I did a few sketches), and I quite like most of the levels.

Writing walkthroughs is also a little bad, I only wrote 4/10 for my levels.

Nice levels, geoo! Your style seems strangely similar to Insane Steve's, with the preference for straight edges and with odd time limits for most levels. I wonder what makes those two traits go together, they seem contradictory

Thanks.
Yes, I also noticed this similarity. I simply prefer straigt edges; therefore I also like Insane Steve's levels.
For the time limit and the RR, I just typed in what I felt like, however with intension, as long as it matched to the level at all.

"Little miner puzzle (part two)" was actually using a backdoor I quite liked I found playing an older version of the level. (I assume you used the trick one miner stops the other one)
However, I'll maybe kick it off and set another one there using this trick as element.

For Level 5, I managed to save 22/23. If the maximum possible is supposed to be 21, I'll PM you my solution. I actually solved it accidentally  X_X (Trying to do one thing, and yet something better happened from it.)

Yes, I checked it for backdoors, but I couldn't get sure that everything had to be solved in the intended  way.
The maximum is 21, please tell me your solution (and the "trying to do one thing" solution too, if it works).

For Level 6, my solution does not exactly match your hints (might be close though, I don't know), but it seems like the level is rather open, with various options for tools and a somewhat generous number to save, so this should not be surprising. Plus, there are so many ways to deal with the trap at the end...

I just noticed the ridiculously easy backdoor to trap the lemmings right at the beginning X_X
Well, I'll try to fix this. But if you found other ways than that, please just tell me which of the skills basher, miner and digger you definately need to execute your solution, both Shvegait and guest/ccexplore.

Some tricky levels indeed.  I did manage to get #7 (actually a 23/25 there) and #9 though, of the ones you mentioned above.  (9 is not very interesting by the way......)  #2 is especially making me go  "::".

So far I've not read any of the hints.  Hopefully it'll stay that way.  :-/

The nineth level's position is deliberately overestimated; first, and mainly, because I made it as 9th level and released it as g0s08.lev. So I didn't want to change the name. Now, I'll just keep the level file's names in the order I made them, and rearrange them in the set, also it might be a bit confusing.

For level 7, I absolutely can't imagine a 23/25 solution without timing, as you said.
Can you give me an explaination (or screenshot) of you solution please?

[...]

[geoo]

[...]continuing from above

This level is a LemEdit remake. Maybe the differences render the intentional solution impossible? I have absolutely no ideas for that level anymore, since you seem to need both bombers to bomb through just one area... hmm...
The "Nothing special at all" in the level description implies that it's not intended to be all that difficult or use clever tricks... I don't know.

Well, maybe I underestimated the difficulty of the level, but I thought the way wouldn't be too hard to find out. At least it is surely solvable, I checked.
[May include spoiler]Also, it seemed easy to execute when I decided the position in the set, but when I checked it now again, it appeared to need some exact precision, mainly because of the floor.

I've also gotten #8 now (still haven't read any hints yet).  Turns out I was making it more complicated than it actually needs be.  I'm not sure I'd really call anything there a trick, but neat level nonetheless.

I'm curious whether your solution is a backroute. Can you tell me, please?

Oh. I just passed Level 9. Generally I tend to give up quickly on levels that have fake steel, even if they actually have easy solutions. (I made the silly assumption that the whole top platform was steel.) I don't care if there are steel areas on non-steel terrain (and vice-versa) if it is
obvious where they are or there are clues as to what might be what, but otherwise I'm just skipping your level, sorry  

Well, I wonder, when you said you thought the whole top platform would be steel, whether it matters for your solution. For mine, it doesn't matter whether the whole or only part of the platform are steel.
If it does, I wonder what your solution could be.
Anyway, I think I'll mark the steel somehow.


Finally, I still think level 10 is harder than level 2.
You backdoored quite a lot of my levels.
Since school is starting again tomorrow, updating the levels will progress only slowly and making new

ones will take even more time than up to now, when I needed over three weeks for 10 levels (Ok, I didn't try to be so quick, but still). Thanks for playing my levels.

[Shvegait]

About Level 9, my solution does require only part of the starting area to be steel. You can turn around on steel by building and then mining. Then hit the wall on the left so you are facing the right. Dig now, because you'll be to the left of the exit and facing the right. Fall, you won't die (a la "We all fall down"), and walk in the exit. My other solution attempts involved all three lemmings and most of the tools (but failed), so I wouldn't be surprised if this is unintentional.

I didn't use the trick you described to solve "Little miner puzzle (part two)". I don't see where that would even be necessary. A lemming walking into a miner's path will turn around and can dig the other way, of course, but I never ran into a situation where I needed a miner to stop mining before it went all the way through. Usually the opposite would happen. I'd want a miner to keep going, and have another facing the opposite way, but the one facing the opposite way would stop the other miner... That was more of an issue with (part one), where you don't have many miners to work with.

I'll still need to give more thought to solve levels 2, 8 and 10 though.

[geoo]

(L9) Hmm, seems that I miss the obvious.
However, I think it's obvious how to colse the backdoor here.
Since you don't like 'fake-steel', I prepared an image with two
different looks for the steel blocks.
Feel free to choose one : http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/steel.PNG

(L8 ) @ccexplore: would a 12 pixel block on the ground right to the very left bottom
staircase make you solution impossible?

[ccexplore]

(L8 ) @ccexplore: would a 12 pixel block on the ground right to the very left bottom
staircase make you solution impossible?

No one ever reaches there in my solution, so the change would have no effect whatsoever.

[geoo]

Hmm, then the backdoor I found is another one (quite simple though).
Could you tell me in brief what you did to solve levels 7 & 8, please?
Since you're much better than me it surely would take me ages to find your solutions...

Also, I'm sure now to kick off the miner puzzle part two since my solution has no real puzzle character and Shvegait found a solution which is nothing special at all as he says (Although I didn't find it yet, as I said, I use to miss the obvious X_X).
Just to make sure, you used Havoc 5 trick twice in part one?
And, could you please send me your solution for level 5 @ Shvegait?

Thanks in advance.

[Shvegait]

Yeah, I used the Havoc 5 trick twice in Part One (and once in Part Two). For Part Two, there is probably just something you're not realizing because it's not obvious until you're playing through the level. I actually tried using it in Part One originally, but you'd need a couple extra miners to pull it off.

The situation is this. When mining to the left near the middle-bottom of the level, the height difference is such that several lemmings can get grouped together (if you raise RR to 99 and wait a little while) and make it to the upper bar (even though the miner MUST keep mining and all the rest of the lemmings will get sent to the lower bar). So what you have is, say, 12 lemmings (actual number can vary based on little spacing differences) in a clump walking to the left. In Part One, this doesn't help you: You can make one lemming a miner*, but the rest will walk back to the right before you can perform the Havoc 5 trick. However, in Part Two, your supply of miners is much greater. Since miners have a pretty significant initial thrust, you can make several of these lemmings miners to the left, and the last lemming in the clump can easily perform the Havoc 5 trick.

*You actually have one more spare miner, but it's not enough to do what's needed for the Part Two solution. I think you might be able to pull it off with just 8 miners, but I used 9.

I'll send you my Level 5 solution in a little bit.

[ccexplore]

Hmm, then the backdoor I found is another one (quite simple though).
Could you tell me in brief what you did to solve levels 7 & 8, please?

Sorry for taking so long to reply.  The main reason is I wanted to find your intended solutions for those levels first before I decided how to answer.  And I'm glad to announce that I have indeed found your intended solutions for both levels (although for level 7 I didn't bother trying it out for real).

Well?  For level 7, I would much rather tell you how to fix it rather than telling you the backroute itself.  On the other hand, for level 8, I don't mind telling you my backroute.  (Wow, I always thought your trick for level 8 is LemEdit only.  Guess not.)

I think for level 7 my approach will be a win-win situation, since I get to keep something for myself, while you get someone else to help you fix your level, in particular someone who came up with the backroute in the first place.  Or rather, a solution trickier than necessary.

[As a sidenote, part of the reasons I ended up with something radical and unrevealable for level 7 is because for the longest time, I really thought the last 3 steps were 7, 8, and 9 pixels tall.  (Ironically, my 23/25 would not even work if it were really that way.)  Desperation leads to crazy things.  Anyway, so much for my ability to count. ]

I'll PM you what I believe to be your intended solutions, and I'll PM you how I first solved level 8.  For level 7, please wait a little so I can find time to test things out.  I can tell you though that for level 7 my main plan for fixing would involve widening the steps a little.

Since you're much better than me it surely would take me ages to find your solutions...

Nah.  It's probably just the "creator's blind eye".   When you create a level with a particular solution in mind, you tend to overlook other ones, especially contorted ones that a struggling mind conjures from the depths of, um, something.    Remember, I'm still stumped by your level 2 which you believe should be easy.

[ccexplore]

Ok, regarding level 7, funny thing happen. &#A0;Because I didn't really try it out, one thing I overlooked is that I needed 1 more climber than there is.  So what I thought was your intended solution doesn't work.  (Yes, my own 23/25, no-timing solution I have definitely tested.)

But more interestingly, I was then able to modify the solution such that it still saves 23/25 with the skills given, even though this time it does require very good timing.

So, here's the deal: &#A0;I will keep the 23/25 solution that doesn't require much timing, but I will tell you (PM) the timing-required 23/25. &#A0;The fact is, they are actually somewhat similar. &#A0;Since I no longer know for sure what your intended 22/25 solution is, you'll have to fix it yourself, although I'm always here to help you playtest it.

[ccexplore]

A quick update on level 7:  at this point I have 4 solutions for that level, some saving 22/25, some 23/25, some requiring timing and some doesn't.  All have been playtested to work.

I have PM geoo89 two selected solution, neither of which is my very first solution which I probably won't reveal for a while.

I did however point out to geoo89 a simple, no-timing 23/25 solution that leaves the floater and blocker unused.  It is simple enough that even Shvegait should be able to do it.  

[geoo]

Sorry for the late reply, but I had not enough time yesterday.

Let's start with level 5 (Shvegait).
The backdoor you found is not hard to close. Also, I edited a little to prevent the possibilities to do some other tasks which could be used for more backdoors.
However, I'm still not sure about alternative ways.
For the new level, see here @everyone:
http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-2.zip
I'd say, if without backdoors, it is harder, or since I maybe underestimate #2, about as difficult as #2.

Also, have you already made a decision for the steelblocks for level 9?

-----

Now level 8 (ccexplore):
The way you told me per PM is, you're right, the intended one.
Also, the backroute you found is, as you said, easy to close; the one I found too.
If you didn't find it yet I can PM you if you are interested.
About the trick, see PM.

Level 7:
Also here you're right with the intended solution. I did it just a slightly different which caused that I only could save 22/25. Mine is a bit harder and I could avoid yours making the last step 8 pixels high, but maybe I accept it too.
Your 'infamous' first non-timing solution, whatever it is, will of course keep (if I don't make it impossible accidentaly).
Now, solution #4.
I think it would be possible to avoid this way increasing the height of the first or third 7-pixel step by one. And I'd prefer ... - 6 - 7 - 8 - 7, not ... - 6 - 8 - 7 - 7.
But I don't know whether #3 with the advantages would make the backroute possible still.

Nah.  It's probably just the "creator's blind eye".   When you create a level with a particular solution in mind, you tend to overlook other ones, especially contorted ones that a struggling mind conjures from the depths of, um, something.   Remember, I'm still stumped by your level 2 which you believe should be easy.

Well, yes, that might be another aspect.

-----

For level 4, I actually had a level idea for replace, but it turned out that this wasn't possible. So I have to think of something different.


Thanks you two for your help.  

[Shvegait]

Let's start with level 5 (Shvegait).
The backdoor you found is not hard to close. Also, I edited a little to prevent the possibilities to do some other tasks which could be used for more backdoors.
However, I'm still not sure about alternative ways.
For the new level, see here @everyone:
http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-2.zip
I'd say, if without backdoors, it is harder, or since I maybe underestimate #2, about as difficult as #2.

Well, bad news. I found another 22/23 solution, though it may be easy to fix. I'll PM it.

Also, have you already made a decision for the steelblocks for level 9?

I would just use the steel blocks already in the style, with cut and paste to fit them for size.

It is simple enough that even Shvegait should be able to do it.  

Hey! What is that supposed to mean?