Cheapo Level Pak topic

[Proxima]

A small announcement; I don't know if this is the right topic for it, but never mind.

I'm going to be very busy for a while getting applications for my PhD sorted out, and I won't be touching Cheapo for that time. On about page 4 of this topic I promised to have my Quirky set done by the end of February. It won't be.

I hope that when my exile ends there are some more interesting levels from you lot for me to look at. I look forward to seeing them!

[guest]

Ooh, good luck on your PhD!  So I guess we won't be seeing you until, what, summer 2008?  2010?  or maybe 2015?  

[Conway]

He'll still be on the site, just not as able to give so much attention to Lemmings. Isn't that right, Ahribar?

[Proxima]

Right; and it may take years to get a PhD, but I hope to God it doesn't take me until 2015 to apply for one! So you should be seeing me again round about April if all goes well.

[guest]

LOL, I know I'm just joking around.  And I'm sure when you're doing your PhD there'll be plenty of spare time waiting for lab results or what-not to go back to level designing.  Anyway, good luck, and remember nothing beats a good recommendation/reference from a Prof. when it comes to PhD apps (or so I'm told).

[Conway]

Yeah, good luck Ahribar.

  By the way, LemEdit remake download! B) Please tell me if you have any questions, or if you think you've discovered a bacroute, or if you pass a level and save a lot more than necessary, or with a ridiculous amount of time or skills left.

[Shvegait]

w00t!

So far I've passed the first nine levels. I'm stuck on "A real breakthrough" probably because I used a backroute to your BOP! level :: I will have to think about it some more.

Why did you change the name of "Don't want to give too much away" to "Over or Under"... but you didn't change the name of "The desert planes of Lemmingland" even though it looks nothing like a desert!? And did you mean "planes" or "plains"? Anyway, the new versions are very good. I found the new "Mining upwards?" to be especially frustrating, but that was mostly because I made stupid mistakes and there is really no room for error.

Also, "Another very short level" is a funny title without the original "A very short level"... I'm wondering if I used a backroute or not (didn't use the miners). I definitely used a backroute in your LemEdit version (simply build up the right side), but it's not possible in the Cheapo version.

"Honeycomb" was pretty fun, hadn't really tried the LemEdit version so I can't compare. "Out of the fryingpan. . ." really requires perfect timing now. Took me a while to find the solution even though I had beaten the original! The others seemed to be as usual.

I might skip "Breakthrough" for now and play some others. Nice levels!



I still haven't converted "A stitch in time", but I'll try to do that soon and upload another update to my remake pack soon enough (I've removed that one-pixel opportunity in "Take the stairs" and fixed a couple other backroutes, I think). I've been jotting down a lot of tricks that I've thought of (usually things I do by accident when playing through levels), so maybe I'll get to making new levels again.

[Conway]

How did you pass the LedEdit version of 'BOP'? It's not exactly the same in the Cheapo version; different tricks are used, but only the layout is similar.

[Shvegait]

Oh, for LemEdit BOP!, I just made the first few lemmings bombers, and then clustered the rest with two blockers, then freed them.

Question about "The Great Wall": Of course it's blatantly obvious what needs to be done and basically how to do it, but little timing issues seem to always rise up. Any hints? Or is it all luck..?

[Conway]

Yeah, that's the intended solution for 'BOP', but it's a little different in the Cheapo version.

  What timing problems are there in 'The Great Wall'? I did it (and I've just done it again to make sure) with about 45 seconds to spare. The real problem I had was the chance that I'll get a tight group falling with a basher, or a basher releasing a blocker so he's able to walk without falling to the basher's tunnel. If these are the timing issues you mean, yeah, it's all down to chance. It took me about ten tries too!

[Shvegait]

Conway, this is a plea for you to change or remove "The Great Wall" from your LemEdit Remake set.  

Of course I'm doing something wrong, but there seems to be no logical way of correcting that wrong thing (whatever it is, I can't say for certain). Blockers and bashers being off by one or two pixels will completely change the outcome of a solution. (Yes, I have tried messing with the release rate, and different trap situations, and they help to a small extent, but do not solve the problem.)

One of these must be the goal of your level, otherwise I don't see the point:

1) To see how well players deeply understand the core mechanics of the game (i.e. judging long bashing distances and determining exactly where the final bash will end up, or determining exactly how a group of 20 lemmings will walk between a blocker in a specific position and a wall that is being bashed)

2) To frustrate players to no end as they find that what they know must be the solution does not work, time after time, even though there is no logical way to modify the solution so that it does work more often than not (or even, less often than not, but more often than once in a thousand tries!)

3) To measure players' luck tolerance threshold.

If one of these is not your goal, then one or more of the following changes should be acceptable (in order of my personal preference. I am sort of joking about d, and f should actually fall after c in the list, but I wanted to put it last):

a) Lowering the number of lemmings in the level, perhaps to 10. To eliminate luck altogether, lower this to 3.

b) Widening the level. I've found that the level gets easier rather than harder as you progress (although I've still managed to lose when I thought I was finally going to obtain victory), due to the longer distances the lemmings must travel. If the level were to start out wide, there would be fewer collision conflicts.

c) Make the level much shorter, like the LemEdit version (which was, dare I say, more tolerable!). The later stages of the level are absolutely nothing new when you get there, so why bother making a big level out of this? If anything, it makes it harder to see where you go wrong, since the reason you lose when freeing the 7th blocker could have been caused by a basher at the wrong pixel when freeing the 4th blocker, or something minor like that.

d) Somehow make the places where you have to bash and block (and I'm talking pixels here) more clear. I don't know how you'd do this without making the level stupid, but right now it is really really difficult to see how and why you went wrong when you lose.

e) Changing the level to give players more control over the lemmings, while still maintaining the general concept. Of course this would require more work than the previous suggestions.

f) Remove the level and replace it with a puzzle!  B)


If you oppose suggestions a,b, or c on the grounds that they make the level too easy, then you admit that the level's difficulty comes out of chance and luck alone (unless #1,2, and/or 3 are part of your motivation for this level, of course), and is therefore no better than "All or nothing"! (In fact, since "All or nothing" technically does not require luck, this is perhaps worse.)



You could argue that my "Floating to safety" level has a high luck factor, and this may or may not be true, but there is a definite pattern that will give you decent enough results to pass the level with a few tries, plus the level is short and one mistake does not necessarily cost you the whole level! (It is possible to save more than the required amount.)


Sorry, I don't mean to sound hostile, so don't take offense if I did, but this level bothers me in so many ways that I felt the need for this long post. But I'm really not mad  

[Conway]

Wow, I can see you've put some effort in your objection to this level! I agree with you partly, but I'm not entirely sure what you're having trouble with. There are two traps in this level that I can see; getting two or more lemmings bunched together where you need to make a blocker (straight after a basher releases a blocker and falls to the step below), or the annoying event of a basher releasing a blocker but not making him fall. The latter occurs very rarely, about one in ten times in my experience, and grouping them like you said can greatly reduce the chance of a group or a lemming falling with the blocker.

  HINTS FOLLOW

  If you block first (obviously), then bash through the first section, then turn the release rate up to 99 so they all gather between the blocker to the left and the wall to the right, and then bash right, the lemmings will be tightly grouped for a while.

  Also, if you appoint each blocker on the spot above where the releasing basher will fall, the blocker should fall first, and the basher a second later. This way, the same two lemmings will be used to block throughout the level, and the same lemming will be used to bash so you're not breaking up any of the tight groups. Using this method, throughout the level you should have no more than about five tight groups walking back and forth.

  I don't really want to edit the level, although I agree it can be frustrating. Try the hints and it should be a lot easier.

  Thanks for playing!

[SyNTaX]

//www.zone.ee/adversa/TheLandOfOz.zip
or
//www.zone.ee/adversa/TheLandOfOz.rar
And all the necessary style files (heck, i'm sure you won't need them all, but as i don't EXACTLY remember which styles you need) here: //www.zone.ee/adversa/OzReq.zip
or
//www.zone.ee/adversa/OzReq.rar
 
Some description: The Land Of Oz.
The set contains 10 levels w/ increasing difficulty. The first two are just something to get your fingers warmed up while the rest peovide you with at least somewhat of a puzzle. 3 of the levels use the Shadow style - it's my favorite and it had the coolest levels in Lemmings 2.
Here are the descriptions for all of the levels (you've got to ask me for more hints/tips or a walkthrough Wink) Pros might just as well as skip the first 2-3 levels.
 
Level 1 - Snowville lems
This is a really straightforward one. A few clicks here and there and that's it.
 
Level 2 - Little galactoids
A simple level showing how cool the "Galaxy" style is (praise the author). There are arrows that are going to help you through the level. I kind of tried to be as confusing as the Space Tribe in L2, but i guess i failed Tongue
 
Level 3 - Wide Spread
Beginners might find this one a problem. Or then not. Pretty simple as well, just mind the diggers.
Level 4 - Hole Potting
Now we are closely getting to the point. You need a bit of skills to get through this piece of metal. You'll be fine as long as you remember to conserve your tools.
 
Level 5 - The Downside of Being Upside
Aha! The first Shadow level! Think before you act and act well. No excess tools for you this time, so make your plans THOROUGHLY!
 
Level 6 - Tea For Two
When good at dig-building and bash-building, this should be a doddle!
 
Level 7 - Go For Be Low
This is a remake of a L2 Classic Tribe level. The final moves differ from the original, but the point is the same. Don't bother digging right through the ground, you will fail.
 
Level 8 - The Roughinery
(Guess where i stole the name from Tongue...) ...but it's more appropriate to this level. Thins get dicy from here on. If at first, you won't succeed, as you'll have to develop a minimum-builder tactic.
 
Level 9 - Prison of Mind
^ The one with the trick. Or even a few you might say. There are excessive tols on this stage. I REALLY wanted to cut the amount of builders down, but it might have got too annoying at the "digging" part.
 
Level 10 - The Land Of Oz
The grand one. The huge one. The level that will hopefully beat the crap out of you. Once again with a L2 hint - the name 'n' stuff.  You won't have any room for error on this level. Pixel-building, altered digging methods, multitasking - you'll encounter all of this. Keep your finger on the "P" button and prepare for some restart-replays.

As i copied the text, when it says "Tongue" then think of the smily

[Conway]

Oh no! The files are corrupt! :-(

[SyNTaX]

No they aren't Adam could play them. If you can't download them by clicking (there is a "download will start in 3 seconds" page or smth else), use right-click+save target as.
And just in case, here's the unzipped version: //www.zone.ee/adversa/TheLandOfOz.set