Lemmings Plus DOS Project

[namida]

As my sig suggests, so far 17 levels have been created and (assuming no backroutes pop up; which knowing my level design, they will) finalized. Their positions may be subject to adjustment, but where I currently have them placed, I've got 7 for Nice, 4 for Cheeky, 2 for Sneaky, 2 for Cunning and 2 for Genius. Currently we have 7 levels using the tree style, 4 using the psychedelic style and 6 using the metal style. (Which is somewhat amusing - I had been avoiding the psychedelic style for new levels cause I thought I had been overusing it, turns out that's about as far from the truth as I could get...). Some other random facts is that all the Cheeky levels so far use the Tree style, while all the Sneaky levels so far use the Metal style.

(I do also need to keep in mind that I'm planning to add two more styles to the list, and not create too many levels using only these existing 3...)

I'll probably release a 10-level demo (two from each rank) once I have a couple more levels each for the higher 3 difficulties. At the very least, one of the levels in Cunning is not one that I feel is suitable for a demo.

Rolling Rampage turned out pretty nice. The tree style obviously isn't ideal since it's a rough-edged style and Rolling Rampage was originally made in pillar style which is straight-edged; psychedelic doesn't actually work that well either due to the emphasis on thin platforms/walls. It could've been done, but metal was the clear winner for which style to use here. =P

[namida]

Another new style! And another new level for Nice just to test that the style works fine... =P (Indeed, due partly to my habit of doing this, Nice is the only rank that has at least one level of every style, even if you don't include this new style. Although as you probably know, the test level for the tree style was "Yours Treely", which is actually Cheeky 7; but the "test levels" for psychedelic, metal and purple styles are Nice 2, 3 and 5 respectively.)

As you can see, this is another rough-edged style like the tree one. However, this one's even rougher - tree style at least has *some* smooth parts, whereas this style is entirely rough (aside from steel), not to mention even the roughest parts of tree style are generally smoother than this style. So that should keep a fairly decent bit of difference between the two - I don't want the styles to feel like just being clones of each other but with different graphics (this was one thing that I felt was a major problem with L3D especially - the space style was quite unique, but the rest were more or less pallete swaps of each other). Of course, doing this effectively is more dependant on the level design than the styles themself, but I think they still play a big part in it.

I'll probably keep the 5th style secret until the actual release... gotta have SOME surprises. =P I haven't even decided what it'll be, let alone started making it yet, so I even I can't say yet anyway.

I don't have a name for this style yet, at the moment I'm just calling it "Purple". If you have any suggestions, feel free to fire ahead. =P

[Akseli]

Also ALL the new levels in v7.

How did you feel about the difficulty of those? Especially for Medi 16 and Medi 21?

I'd recall that Cavern of Chills, Russian Rescue and As It Burns Away... (I used pixel precise skill assignments in this level) were pretty hard for their places and The Oddstack was really hard for its place, yeah it should have been much later in the game. It's The Latest Craze! was too easy for being Danger21, and No Time To Die (Part II) was pretty okay placed. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> (Did I forget any level?)

Btw that purple tileset looks really intriguing and exotic, oh yeah! And I always want to highlight the hilarity of bumpy tilesets, they're far too underrated in my opinion.

[namida]

I didn't think Russian Rescue was too badly placed. It's just a matter of realising to bash with a late lemming, not the first one that gets to the pole. I also felt Cavern of Chills is more or less perfectly placed. I do agree with you about As It Burns Away though. And nope, that's all of them.

By the way, another thing I never really got much feedback either way on: What do you guys think about the LP DOS-style bombers?

[Proxima]

Hi namida,
Just wanted to let you know -- since I don't know whether you ever look at the Lix subforum and can't remember whether I've already told you -- I remade two of your levels, "Variety Day" and "Hellfire", for inclusion in the Lix community set.

I don't have much free time at the moment, but I definitely want to play through the LP DOS project properly when I can http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[namida]

Wasn't aware of that, but (as long as credit's given, which I presume it is) that's fine by me. =)
Aside from Cheapo versions existing of some levels, I also remade Variety Day for the Sega Master System version at one point. Not entirely sure where the level got to, but there's a video on Adam's (I think) youtube channel.

Hm... while I don't plan to do so right now due to working on LPII... I wonder how well To The End could work in SMS version...

[Akseli]

So, I went my third playthrough of this level set (two first were in spring-summer 2012, v3 and v7 of LPDOS), and I recorded my solutions now for all 150 levels in v7. Again, I tried to make natural solutions, but in some cases I tried to save as many as possible. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Challenge/alternative solutions will come later.

Some notes:
Medi 18: Going Under - 100% saved
Medi 27: Take A Dive - 98% saved
Danger 16: Grounded! - 85% saved, http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=283.msg8729#msg8729" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">one guy achieved this a lot earlier than me, though.
Danger 21: It's the Latest Craze! - 95% saved
Danger 23: Lair of the Fallen Lemming - 98% saved, okay my original solution used the bomber there where I used the miner in this solution. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Danger 30: The Hideout - 98% saved
PSYCHO 5: Lightspeed Lemming - 91% saved, this was one of the three Fire levels I had troubles with back then (Danger 22 and PSYCHO 2 being the other ones), this is pretty hard and I remember that when I solved this, I saved an extra lemming by accident with this solution.
PSYCHO 6: The Bulldozer - Now I remember that my original solution used this 'blocker cancelling trigger areas'-glitch.
PSYCHO 13: Go High, Go Low - Steel digging glitch used and saved extra lemmings. I should look for a glitchless solution, too.
PSYCHO 17: Meeting Spot - My original solution used 'climber stuck in the ceiling'-glitch, here's a glitchless solution saving 90%.
PSYCHO 19: The Perfect Nightmare - My original solution used steel digging glitch, here's a glitchless solution.
PSYCHO 24: Gone In A Flash - Steel digging glitch used. I should look for a glitchless solution, too.
PSYCHO 29: No Salvation V - My original solution used 'blocker cancelling trigger areas'-glitch, here's a glitchless solution.
PSYCHO 30: Hellfire! - My solution saves one climber.

I haven't watched the intended solutions, so it'll be easier for me to find other solutions still.

[namida]

I don't think there's any way to beat Psycho 24 without using some definition of glitch - my logic at the time was that placing a blocker under the trap is simply a matter of "traps don't affect blockers, blocker prevents any other lemming from going there" because I didn't know what was happening from a technical point of view. This should be the only level that requires such measures, though (I don't consider direct drop to be a glitch).

I also agree that those three levels are extremely hard (in fact, Danger 22 appears in my list of the 5 hardest LPDOS levels in my opinion, along with To The End, both NTTDs and Medi 16). That being said, once you get used to the exact timings, it's quite easy to beat Danger 22 and Psycho 5, whereas Psycho 2 is just a royal pain in the ass no matter how used to it you are.

[namida]

Some comments on the replays:

Wimpy 14 - I think this is actually the first time I've ever seen a right-side solution to this level. (Left-side is less work, after all. xD)
Wimpy 27 - The usual solution... but did you know there IS a second way to solve it? Though it still uses all 3 diggers and relies on the same basic idea, just a slightly less obvious positioning.
Wimpy 29 - Nice, I haven't seen that solution before.
Medi 8 - NICE! I've always gone under it then come back up on the other side.
Medi 16 - You solved it with MUCH more time to spare than I did - my solution comes down to the last few seconds. o_O Well done!
Medi 18 - Can't believe I missed that. xD Well done.
Medi 21 - Your solution actually improves a bit on the skills you can't live without challenge (removes a bomber and the builder - and it's possible to use a builder instead of the blocker, and thus remove that too). Nice.
Medi 26 - Another case where previously I've only seen left-side solutions.
Medi 27 - That was pretty clever. xD
Medi 29 - Very clever solution there! It's quite close to the intended one, but yours is a bit more efficient.
Danger 13 - You know you would've saved more lemmings by just using a blocker for crowd control and blowing him up... =P
Danger 14 - That's a pretty original way of solving it. =O Very different from the way I did it, though I definitely wouldn't class this as a backroute, just an alternate solution.
Danger 23 - Not exactly how I intended for this one to be solved, but it works. =P
Danger 30 - That was pretty neatly done.
Psycho 2 - You did this a bit differently to me; your solution looks much easier to time properly.
Psycho 6 - A major case of "ignore the easy solution, go for the hard one"... =P
Psycho 7 - That's slightly differently to how I did it (I didn't trap the lemmings, just delayed them as long as possible), but same basic ideas.
Psycho 9 - o_O WOW, I did not realise there was a small gap between the flames. Wish I'd known that while I was doing the challenges, because that makes a huge difference there...
Psycho 12 - This solution can probably be modified to use less than 16 builders, which'd set a new record for skills you can't live without... and if so, it could then also be modified to use less than 16 floaters (by delaying some with builders instead)...
Psycho 13 - Backroute'd. Or glitch solution'd, really. Still, you set a new % record on this one!
Psycho 17 - Pretty nicely done.
Psycho 19 - This is a backroute, though it's not a new one, I've known about this for a long time.
Psycho 20 - That was a pretty neat solution. I was wondering what the hell you were doing with that builder down the bottom at first. xD
Psycho 23 - Backroute, but there again, this level is infamous for backroutes - there's probably been more backroutes to this level, than there is to the entire rest of LPDOS combined.
Psycho 24 - That was a pretty neat solution.
Psycho 26 - Definitely a backroute. xD I wonder if that solution would work on the *original* (Cheapo) version of this level... probably would tbh.
Psycho 27 - Nicely done.
Psycho 29 - Interesting. You have the same basic ideas as me, but a slightly different way of pulling them off.
Psycho 30 - Same basic idea as the intended solution, but again, quite a different way of pulling it off. Nicely done.

[Akseli]

Okay, I recorded some alternate solutions now. Here's how I originally solved Danger 26 (forgot that one earlier), Psycho 19 and Psycho 29 with glitches before this playthrough. No, I never thought about even searching for other solutions for Wimpy 27, but here's two other ones. Then here's some solutions that improve "skills you can't live without" and "minimum skills" challenges, I also noticed that at least my solution for Danger 12 from the previous upload of replays will improve results of these challenges. I realized that my solution for Psycho 9 was very weird also, so now I tried to find a more proper solution, but it still uses steel digging.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

[Akseli]

Wimpy 14: Head East or West? and Medi 26: Overheat - Well, for me it was the most natural to go to the direction where lemmings face right after falling from the hatch. I went for the left-side solutions in both these levels during my second playthrough of this pack, and then again did right-side solutions during my last playthrough.
Wimpy 27: Ready, Aim, Fire!!! - Which one was your second solution for this, or is it even some else solution? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Psycho 2: The Parking Lot - Yea at some point I thought that it's intended to take out those falling and ascending frames (by making the ground more flat with the builder and the basher) because of the tight time limit, but now I'm wondering if that's what you aimed with this level. O_o
Psycho 6: The Bulldozer - Never thought about direct drop before you mentioned it in a PM related to LPII. :--D Also, now it's certain that every LPDOS level can be solved without direct drop, but hasn't anybody really found a glitchless solution to Psycho 24: "Gone In A Flash" ever?
Psycho 9: Coalburner - I just tried to squeeze lemmings between those flames and it really needed that sacrifice, it wouldn't otherwise work. Didn't know back then that there could be other solutions now that there's steel preventing the route beneath the level (although my other solution uses steel digging, too).

[namida]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm working on an upgraded version of Lemmix (different goals than Eric's upgrades), basically to maintain the original mechanics but fix glitches (and optionally, include the LP style bombers). While I've lost the source code of LPDOS, I've managed to recover the level DAT files as well as ODDTABLE.DAT by extracting them from the EXE. I could possibly create updated versions of LPDOS and LPII to run on this player (since it was easier to do it than not to do it, this version also includes support for LPII gimmicks). Also includes pixel-resolution object map (instead of 4x4) and indestructible steel.

[namida]

Well, work on creating a NeoLemmix version of LPDOS has officially begun!

Just for reference:

• Levels will be updated to take advantage of pixel-precise triggers and steel placement, etc. (For example, things like exits that were half-buried in terrain to make them work will be repositioned.) A few symmetrical (or semi-symmetrical) levels will also make use of left-facing exits (for example, Mild 6, Medi 28, Danger 17, etc).
• Some minor music issues are also fixed.
• It will NOT have new 32-color versions of the graphic sets, just the same old versions.
• Levels may have slight difficulty adjustments, nothing major though. (Some examples so far: Wimpy 13 has 10 extra of each skill, a lower save requirement and a higher time limit; Medi 16 has a higher time limit; Danger 24 has only 10 of each skill now (was 20)). This is not intended as a full-blown rebalancing, but simply to slightly ease up on some that are REALLY hard for their position, or add challenge to some that are REALLY too easy - if it's only mildly or even moderately out of place, it won't be adjusted unless the new mechanics require it (for example, don't expect changes to PSYCHO 14).
• Likewise, levels might have adjustments if a new feature renders something unnessecary (or something extra nessecary). For example, left-facing entrances mean the blocker is no longer needed on PSYCHO 21 so it has been removed; while due to the different entrance order, Medi 10 has an extra floater (even though the conditions under which it's needed happen far less often under the new mechanics; but they still *can* happen, so the extra floater's there just in case).
• V7 levels, no new secret levels will be added (I had considered the idea of adding some of the removed-in-V7 levels as secret levels but decided against it).
• Obligatory screenshots are attached. The second one shows why I should NOT have tried to make Medi 11 / PSYCHO 4 look cool in one area that isn't even usually used during the solution... because doing the perfect steel areas was a pain.
• For the most part, no backroute fixes except those that occur incidentally as a result of the mechanics changes / alignment updates. Though I couldn't resist making another (probably futile) attempt at fixing PSYCHO 23... not that anyone would know since I don't think even a demo was ever released, but it's also more true to the Cheapo version (from the never-completed Lemmings Plus 4) now.

Medi 16, of course. Although the only change is an extra minute on the time limit.

While doing this, I noticed that the steel blocks in Medi 10 aren't actually steel! I guess we finally know what Bob's mistake was... xD
I haven't tested many levels yet (apart from checking object alignments / steel positioning is working correctly), but as far as the adjusting for new mechanics goes (fixing steel positioning etc), I only have PSYCHO 8 onwards, Danger 17, Danger 21 and the No Salvations left to do. (This is because Danger 21 and the No Salvations are at the end of the data files, and Danger 17 towards the end of Psycho's data, and I'm simply doing them in the order they're in there.)

[namida]

Adjustments are complete. Time to test the levels now. Assuming they're fine and no new bugs are found in NeoLemmix, the NeoLemmix version of LPDOS isn't far away. =)

Also: Goes without saying that it'll no longer have the BMP images for the sections; they're now integrated into MAIN.DAT properly. =D


EDIT: Testing has been done as far as Wimpy 30. No levels needed difficulty adjustments, though I initially had messed up the steel areas for Wimpy 13, fixed them now though. Also discovered two new glitches, one each while doing Mild 29 and Wimpy 12, so I'll have to fix them up soon. (EDIT: Wimpy 12 glitch fixed. Still gotta fix the Mild 29 one. I'm just using the levels to refer to where I discovered them; neither glitch is specific to that level (though Mild 29 glitch does require a specific terrain arrangement, but Mild 29 isn't even nearly the only place the right arrangement occurs).

EDIT: Ugh... while the Wimpy 12 glitch was a VERY simple fix, the Mild 29 glitch is a total pain in the ass...

EDIT: I think I got it! But because it related to builder's terrain checks, it's very possible it may interfere with replays I already recorded, so now I'm having to go through all of those. Thank f*** I found it while doing Mild and Wimpy, and not while doing Danger or PSYCHO... though for Mild, the only replay I had to redo was Mild 29 itself. Wimpy is another matter... I expected Wimpy 4 if anything to be the problematic one, but it wasn't; Wimpy 8, 10, 13, 14, 17, 21, 23, 24, 28 and 30 all were though. (13 was lucky though; because it also turned out I had the old version of the level in the data files by mistake! Luckily I did still have a copy of the raw LVL file of the updated one. xD)

Also, another change I'll be making: Mild 22 and Medi 17 won't have blockers anymore. They initially had them because the challenge was meant to be (at least in Medi 17, Mild 22 is just an easy level, but the focus here was still on bombing) bomber placement, not bomber timing. With the instant bombers, blockers are no longer nessecary for this purpose. V7 didn't correct these skillsets, but the NeoLemmix version will. (Medi 5 will NOT be changed.)


EDIT: It would seem we have our first level that's impossible under the new mechanics... Medi 21. At least, the solution I usually use has been rendered impossible, I haven't yet ruled out that another solution may exist. At any rate though, if it DOES exist, it's WAY too hard for its position (heck, the level already was as it is). Initially I added a builder and a miner, but this made it far too easy - but adding *only* a builder seems to be a bit more suited to its position.

[namida]

I think PSYCHO so far (only as far as level 5!) has taken me longer to test than the entire first four ranks combined. o_O

Only PSYCHO 4 needed modifications so far (PSYCHO 2 has some anyway though, just to very slightly reduce the difficulty - it was still possible as-is though). I actually thought PSYCHO 5 needed them too, because I couldn't get more than 87% (two lemmings short of the goal). Initially, I upped the climbers and floaters to 12 each, changed it to 80 lemmings (while still requiring 90%, giving an extra lemming spare), and added 10 extra bashers. This made it far too easy, though I noticed that this "easy" solution couldn't be improved beyond 91%, so taking away the two extra climbers and floaters fixed it up - still retaining the 80 lemmings and extra bashers. When I managed to solve the level in this form (which I felt was about the right difficulty), I noticed something - I had managed 91%, and hadn't gone over 30 bashers, which pretty much meant the level in its original form was fine. Indeed, I tried the replay from this on the original and it worked perfectly. =D

Now, PSYCHO 6... this level was by far the most annoying when doing the steel, let's hope it plays well...
EDIT: A fire trap needed to be moved slightly becasue it was now crisping lemmings as they fell from the top-right entrance to the exit, but apart from that, the level had no issues. =) I very much doubt PSYCHO 7 will have any issues, while I'm almost certian PSYCHO 8 will.

EDIT: Amusingly, PSYCHO 8 was mostly not affected. A new backroute popped up due to the mechanics, and it was a very simple fix (to be honest, it might even be possible under the old mechanics, not entirely sure). PSYCHO 9, on the other hand, was the first level to need noticable tweaks to the design. PSYCHO 10, 11 and 12 all had no issues.

EDIT: PSYCHO 26 worked fine without needing modification. Seems to still be as backroute-proof as it was before (ie: not perfectly free of them, it never was, but no new ones have popped up it would seem). Intended solution still works fine. =) I'm VERY happy about this one, considering how much work ccexplore initially put into getting that level to work.