L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings

[DragonsLover]

It was indeed a great session. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

About the "Blocker" issue, I was thinking about another skill from Lemmings 2 : the Stacker. I guess it could be interesting to create walls and at the same time, would become easier to remove. Climbers could be used more often too. I mean, we already have the Builder for diagonal construction and Platformer for horizontal construction. Why not vertical as well? What do you think?

[Clam]

I'm not sure about using stackers instead of blockers. Sometimes you need to turn around a whole lot of guys at once (like when they're about to fall down a deep pit), and you don't have time to wait for a stacker. Then again, one could argue that's punishment for bunching up all your lemmings in one place, but that wouldn't be fun.

[Simon]

Hi,

I will upload a new testing version tomorrow evening.

https://raw.github.com/SimonN/Lix/master/doc/history.txt" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Read the changelist

Most important things from that list: Dedicated server application, revamped digger physics, entrance hatch direction selection, and something nice for any singleplayer connoisseur - VGASPEC support thanks to Mindless!

The Stacker and the Bombers are both very nice ideas. Making a skill from scratch takes some time, though. I was planning to implement the Roper some time ago, and I'm done drawing it, however, its physics will be not as simple.

We can already agree upon a time to test the new version if you like. :-) This time should be within the upcoming week.

-- Simon

[Minim]

About the "Blocker" issue, I was thinking about another skill from Lemmings 2 : the Stacker. I guess it could be interesting to create walls and at the same time, would become easier to remove. Climbers could be used more often too. I mean, we already have the Builder for diagonal construction and Platformer for horizontal construction. Why not vertical as well? What do you think?

I think it's great to have a stacker. I also want a magnobooter as well like in Sports 7.

The Stacker and the Bombers are both very nice ideas. Making a skill from scratch takes some time, though. I was planning to implement the Roper some time ago, and I'm done drawing it, however, its physics will be not as simple.

Roper? Are you crazy? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" /> I wouldn't agree there unless someone gives a reason why Ropers are good in multiplayer.

[geoo]

Ah, these sound like quite some useful additions. That'd mean that there's no need for Hamachi if someone with the right port settings provides a server even when not playing himself. Also kudos to Mindless, especially as it seems that this is not the first contribution to the project.
Just out of interest, are replays compatible across versions, or do they screw up when the physics are altered? I see there's a version parameter in the files, so I suppose they'd just be unplayable with different version.
I think I should be available in the evenings the entire week, though I'd prefer the date not to be Tuesday.

btw, a bit belated, but I must say I found the latest mutiplayer session even better than the previous one we had!

Good thing about the stacker is that it is pretty useless for last-ditch efforts near an exit, yet useful for containing your own crowd (unless you have a lemming of a different team in it, but that might be considered a reward for the opponent). Unless you have all of your lemmings densely crammed, the stacker should be fast enough to have only few lemmings pass by. I guess it depends on the level design whether stackers can replace blockers.

I'm totally in favour of the roper, because it's very flexible and finally gives a chance for the terrain creating skills to stand a chance against the terrain removal ones. They allow for quickly crossing gaps or fixing destroyed passways, might get messy for certain types of levels though.
Yeah, in Lemmings 2 the roper seems to behave a little erratic as well. I'd have assumed it to move on a parabolic path leaving a trail (rope) behind, and if the length is too long or the arc is not straight enough, the the trail is removed. But in Lemmings 2 the path doesn't even really look like a parabole.

Haha, with so many skills borrowed from Lemmings 2, you could almost introduce the Lemmings 2 styles. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[Isu]

I had a go at this the other day and I kind of like it. I much prefer this editor over Lemmix - It seems very similar to lemedit, and the single player side is generally very good (I've already completed all of Simons "Test" levels, haha). I noticed however that there were no one way arrows; I made a level but it is pretty broken without them. If the community would get behind L++ and make some more single player levels, it could easily succeed cheapo.

Not had a chance to try out any 2 Player games yet - mainly because I don't post much but yeah.

[Simon]

Hi,

version 2009-11-01 is up:
http://ewigeliste.ew.funpic.de/lpp/download.php" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Download page

Mindless has set up an L++ server. To connect, enter flux.camanis.net in the IP/hostname box and hit "connect to". We should try out this server in our next session. If it works nicely, I will add a button that always connects to there. :-D

Maybe Wednesday, November 4th at 20:00 UTC is an okay time for the next playtest?

(Note that at this time, the server has just the same functionality as a regular hosting L++ player. There is always a single game open to join, and everyone who's connected must hit "ready" to begin. Things like opening separate rooms sound like very nice additions, but require further restructuring of the netcode.)

minimac:
Yeah, I'm not sure which new skill would tackle the current problems best. Stacker, bomber and roper are all highly situational. The best thing might be to implement several and let the level designer choose, I'll see what I have time for.

geoo:
About L2 styles in L++... this might be something for the next semester break if there is good documentation available, heh.

We could try a skype conference during a networking session if everybody has it available. You said you do, I also do; we could ask around who else does. The best part will be hearing other people rant and shout. :-D

Isu:
Thanks for the great review. Especially that you find the editor usable is awesome to hear. Follow the topic and just drop in when we agree upon a date/time for the next netgame. :-)

-- Simon

[Clam]

I've already completed all of Simons "Test" levels, haha

Me too. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> "Up, up, up and all away!" is a very nice puzzle btw.

Re. ropers: I say they're worth including, primarily for the reason geoo mentioned (instant bridge to counteract diggers). It does concern me a bit though that some of the new skills will put more emphasis on micromanaging individual lemmings rather than the wider group (walker and jumper do this too). At the end of the day it's up to the level designer though.


As I mentioned in another thread, I'm busy for the next week, so I won't be at the next game. Assuming there will be one this week http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

geoo:
About L2 styles in L++... this might be something for the next semester break if there is good documentation available, heh.

We could try a skype conference during a networking session if everybody has it available. You said you do, I also do; we could ask around who else does. The best part will be hearing other people rant and shout. :-D

That comment wasn't actually meant really seriously, but if you're interested, Mindless wrote an open-source (de)compressor, and the format is also documented: http://camanis.net/lemmings/tools.php" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://camanis.net/lemmings/tools.php
I'd only need to find out about how the trigger areas are defined. I don't know about the format L++ uses for the style data internally, perhaps the code I wrote for PCL2ED could be adapted.

I'm perfectly fine with the date, I hope we won't be the only ones on then. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" /> I'd also be up on Skype.
And again, thanks to Mindless for setting up a server. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[Isu]

Maybe Wednesday, November 4th at 20:00 UTC is an okay time for the next playtest?

I'm okay with that. Will probably join if I'm not sleeping.

[ccexplore]

I'd only need to find out about how the trigger areas are defined.

I've been looking at the data in the L2OB section of all 12 styles when I wanted to learn more about the file formats.  I still can't fully explain all the data in there (especially since I haven't even tried messing around with the values and see what happens yet), but I think I've already gained a little more insight beyond http://camanis.net/lemmings/files/docs/lemmings_2_sprite_file_format.txt" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">what you have documented, though still not a lot when it comes to trigger areas.  Perhaps you can PM me with what is still confusing you, and I can either answer it with what I know, or figure out a good way to experiment and find out the answer.

[Minim]

Had a good hour on L++ multiplayer. Mostly One-on-one action with geoo.

There was a problem I encountered during the multiplayer game: When a platformer to the wall is complete the lemming would turn around before the next skill would be assigned at the end of the platform. Any possibility that the problem could be fixed?

(I don't think what I said is very clear, I'm not good at English. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />)

[Clam]

I think I know what you mean. Builders (and platformers as well it seems) turn around as soon as they reach the wall, instead of building a couple of bricks into the wall and then turning like they do in the original game. This makes it very difficult to build into the wall and then bash - you have to time the builder perfectly so that it just reaches the wall with the 12th brick. I could see that being annoying...

[Simon]

I was at university before I joined over an hour late <_<; But I got to play some great games as well. Mindless' server does a very fine job. :-)

I've altered builder/platformer logic slightly because I didn't want them to build through some very thin walls. Assigning a skill safely after building/platforming to a wall is more important, however; I will certainly look into this.

Other current bugs are: Space toggles the ready button even when the chat textbox is active, and the server doesn't send the active map to a newly connected client.

-- Simon

[Minim]

I was thinking of a new multiplayer lemmings level, called "Hell in a cell" but I'm not very good at designing levels from the L++ editor, so I'll have to let someone else do this. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

So I decided to use MS paint to come up with a level plan (I'm a good pixel artist, count on me http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />. The border would look like a cell made of terrain, and the exit is above a steel block. For multiplayer purposes each team can have a different cell to start with, and then an exit (Same or different) on top. We could even try wrapping around the map horizontally and/or vertically.