L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings

[Minim]

I will host today on 20:00 UTC, i.e. in just under 3,5 hours, and everybody's invited. My IP is currently (Edit: not longer the same). I will edit the post if it changes (unlikely).

Well, could someone explain to me how these IP addresses work? I don't understand what they do.

[ccexplore]

I haven't tried L++ yet so I can't give you specific instructions, but IP addresses are simply how individual computers connected to the Internet are identified, roughly speaking.  Since Simon is currently using his computer as server for hosting the multiplayer games, the players need to tell L++ which server to connect to, and the IP address is how you would tell L++ to connect to Simon's computer for the server.  For a real life analogy, imagine that this is an actual house party and Simon's hosting it in his house.  If you want to attend the party, you'd need Simon to give you the address to his house, right?  Same deal here with the IP address.

Simon should have instructions on setting up multiplayer games somewhere in this thread.  I'll bet that somewhere in the instructions is a step where you have to enter the IP address of the server.  That's where you'd enter whatever Simon posts up here for his IP address.

[DragonsLover]

Mine is : 75.154.174.81
If someone's interested for another game, just let me know here.

[Clam]

I haven't tried L++ yet so I can't give you specific instructions, but IP addresses are simply how individual computers connected to the Internet are identified, roughly speaking. [...]

I think minimac might have been wondering why Simon's IP address keeps changing (and I've never heard of this either...)

Now a few thoughts from my 2P games with geoo yesterday.

Blockers seem to be too powerful, even with knockback exploders to dislodge them. A few reasons for this:

• Removing an enemy blocker costs you a lemming without your opponent losing one.
• A dislodged blocker can just block again when it gets up, and since your lemmings get caught in the explosion too your lemmings can't overtake the enemy in the meantime.
• Blockers placed on key bridges are very powerful since you can't build over them (at least not without using a blocker yourself), and by removing the blocker you make a hole in your bridge.

Diggers are also very powerful. If your lemmings get caught in an enemy digger's pit, the only feasible way to save the situation is an exploder, or a whole lot of climbers - bashers and miners are completely useless in this situation. Using a few diggers (thus stopping the enemy digger by removing the ground under it) could work too, but it costs you far more than it does your opponent.

Climbers don't appear to be very useful. They're just too easy to stop. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about this.

Steel under entrances and exits is absolutely vital for gameplay. While neither of us resorted to actually digging out the ground directly beneath an exit, I knew (and I suspect geoo did too) that the possibility exists, and we both came very close to doing this at times. I've noticed that on level 13 of the original 2P Lemmings (which we played yesterday), you could make the opponent's exit completely inaccessible by digging/bombing the terrain around it.

Levels with few skills, while an interesting concept, don't allow for much creativity and (IMHO) aren't much fun. The same goes for the number of lemmings (and the number of players, for that matter http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />). It seems to me a case of "more is more", and not less.

Overall... well, first impressions of the 2P game aren't great, to be honest. Quite a comedown after the "party" games earlier in the week.


It would be nice to be able to see the level stats before the game starts, by the way.


EDIT: I should mention, I'm still up for a game if anyone wants to play http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[Adam]

I'm interested in trying this out! If anyone's up for a 2p game, just gimme a shout.

[Minim]

Maybe next time we play multiplayer, I would be interested to see "Pillars of Hercules". I know about the fact that there are limited skills but still, if I get to play it (or watch it), I would be so excited!

[geoo]

Perhaps we could set a date for another meeting with many players?
Tomorrow is still weekend, so I'd suggest that day; I'm personally pretty flexible in regards to the time, so I suggest someone else could set a time.

I definately have to agree on the blockers, the issue with them is that they block the way instantly, and with many blockers available, things get easily pretty messy when trying to remove them.
There's also a tendency that most action seems to take place near the exits, and blockers serve as an easy last resort there.
The only good option I see is cutting down the number of blockers. While there also good instances for using blockers (e.g. separating one's own lemmings from the other ones), the ones I can think of right now can also be achieved otherwise, even though not getting the effect instantly might be a slight disadvantage.

I also agree on the diggers, though I found their power especially prevalent in the previous games we had with more than 2 players. It seems that with the L++ physics it's very difficult to release diggers using diggers of ones own. It's impossible to overtake a digger, as miners are slower vertically as well, and using builders to close the gap will for one rarely keep all lemmings up, and can also easily be destroyed again. So a digger is pretty much in control of the crowd around him. It seems again that cutting down their number is the only decent option for that. Or introduction of the Bomber skill from Lemmings 2 (though you'd still get down with enough of them).
Another advantage of the digger over the miner is that if there's terrain over the digger's pit, you cannot easily close the gap using builders (though with the platformer this can be prevented).

Whether climbers are useful greatly depends on the level though I think. Especially if it's difficult to access the exit by some other means, like in ONML 1, ONML 5 or Orig 3. In that case, the strategy would be to merely save the climbers, and ensure that the opponent won't get a different path to the exit. Of course it has to be ensured that the climbers' path won't be destroyed by the oppoent's lemmings too early, an ensuring this is an interesting task in itself. Also climbers can get out of deadly digger pits.

I find steel under the entrance/exit is not that vital, as building into the exit and hitting the trigger area is not as much of a hassle as it is in the DOS physics. It's comparable to fixing a bridge the opponent destroyed, from the builder requirement. Still it's not that nice having too much action near the exits.

One thing I noticed in the original levels, levels with paths where builders are potentially important (e.g. deadly bottom of level, or simply having to get upwards), some levels are pretty unbalanced between terrain removal skills and terrain creating skills, like having 20 of each which means 60 terrain removal skills and only 20 builders.

Yeah, the experimental levels with very limited skills were less interesting than I hoped them to be. I guess limiting/removing certain types of skills is more the way to go. Like ClamSpammer's miner- and digger-less level, which I liked very much with its multiple possible paths and the limitation of horizontal terrain removal. The blockers I used to delay my defeat could be reduced though.

Can't agree on 'the more players the better' though, I find 2P and more players have somewhat different type of gameplay, both of which I like. More than 2P sure has more action element, however maintaining some more control in 2P allows for more time to think about strategies.
I like however that more than 2P still allows for a balanced gameplay due to that aim of the game: In games where the only aim is to survive against the others, having more than 2 players frequently leads to inbalance, while in the lemmings games we had I haven't seen anyone team up against a certain player; only caring about one's own Lemmings and preventing any lemmings to enter a different exit.

L1/ONML mechanics is overrated.  Just ask CustLemm level makers the bane of steel destruction glitches. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Or the mystery of exits not working, levels crashing due to steel areas sticking outside the level boundaries, etc., before the days of Lemmix's level validator.  And don't forget that there's Cheapo, which has been pretty popular for a while on the old old forums.

I guess some of us have grown fond of these peculiarities http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />, but yeah, they aren't useful for that kind of gameplay. I especially like the way steel is handled in L++.

[Clam]

ClamSpammer's miner- and digger-less level, which I liked very much with its multiple possible paths and the limitation of horizontal terrain removal. The blockers I used to delay my defeat could be reduced though.

Funny you should mention that, since that's exactly what I did after the game. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

I should be able to play tomorrow, though I can't guarantee it at this point. I think the same time as the last meeting (2000 - 0000 UTC) would be fine. Maybe even earlier if I can drag myself out of bed http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

If we do agree on tommorow, then I'll make an effort to get my levels ready tonight.

[Minim]

Who will be the host for this game, and what would the address be now that Simon has changed it?

[Simon]

Yep, I can host at 20:00 UTC today, Sunday, October 25th. My IP address today is (edit: expired), and everyone's invited.

However, I probably won't be up longer than 21:30, as I have university on the morning after. If someone else wishes to host instead, he's welcome. :-) (Host should have an open port 22934 for UDP.)

A problem with the current version is that the L++ host must attain all the games and cannot leave early. I have begun writing a dedicated server today, i.e. a server program that runs separately from L++, and the players will connect to that program. The goal is that this can be run around the clock on a computer that is always connected to the net, unlike mine. I will not have it done until tonight, though, as it requires some restructuring of the game as well.

-- Simon

PS. I will certainly consider altering the L++ physics if you all see fit. Stopping a digger by digging yourself sounds really good, and it even makes sense because you steal the other digger's earth. There are a lot of similar things in this thread that I still want to comment on.

[Clam]

Yep, I can host at 20:00 UTC today, Sunday, October 25th. I will edit this post and insert my IP address here before that time.

Awesome. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

By the way, I noticed that even though the time limits on your MP levels are just "overtime" and are really short, some can still be solved (with 100% even) in single player mode. Like:

- The Party Tree (100%)
- Pyramid with a Platform (maybe 100%, haven't tried this yet)
- Go up one floor (100%)
- Ripe enough for the Island

And I also managed to save a lemming on "Precise fastclick solves".


Here are the levels I've been working on. The attached zip contains six levels, but really only two. One is for 2 or 4 players, and the other is for anything from 2 to 5 players. I recommend looking over these now, so you know how they work before the game starts http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

I'll sure be in. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

I (and Simon) got to take note that in our time zone it's one hour earlier than last time due to the DST adjustment.
Got to get up the next moring for university as well.

Attached the levels I made up to now (I amended the few-skill levels to have more again); the reason I have so many Pillar/Classic style levels is mostly the grid size of 10, and the blocks are 20 low-res pixels high. Perhaps it'd be best if the possiblity to set an arbitrary grid size was implemented, as for e.g. this style 8/16 pixels wouldn't work that well, and brick/hell styles have many multiples of 12 yet again. Also the distance a copied piece will be offset should be affected by this grid then.

[Clam]

Another great session this morning (/ last night), although a lot shorter than the previous one unfortunately.


The blocker issue was highlighted again sadly. However, a solution was mooted that I think could work quite nicely: add the Bomber skill from Lemmings 2. Two big advantages here - no 5 second timer to deal with, and no need to sacrifice a lemming. This will make blocker removal much easier, and I don't think it would make blockers too weak as a result.

I've noticed that in replays, the black team (if there is one) shows up in the regular blue and green instead of black. Why is this? It makes things hard to follow when there are blue and green teams as well...

[Minim]

Just to let you know that I'm on a half term break, so I get no school for a week plus an INSET day, so I'll be back on the 3rd of November.

I'm thinking of a time to play at the moment at around the morning. I do prefer one-on-one action. I will probably need to send a private message or an e-mail in order to get this "2 players only" lemmings working.

[Clam]

One other idea I had. In addition to having pictures of the lemmings over the exit, you could put them on the trapdoors too. Plus you could make them face in the direction that the lemmings walk when they enter the level.