L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings

[Simon]

All:
I will host today on 20:00 UTC, i.e. in just under 3,5 hours, and everybody's invited. My IP is currently (Edit: not longer the same). I will edit the post if it changes (unlikely). Around that time, open L++, click Network Game, and enter said IP address next to "Connect to".

The toroidal wraparound feature is fun, it integrates so nicely with the game flow and allows very balanced multiplayer maps. I just had to implement this, I study mathematics and specialize in Topology. ;-)

DragonsLover:
Team play is something I've also thought about, as it makes a lot of sense for this game. I will look into a new feature like this when I have a day of free time, and when I'm done fixing some very small things in the current version.

Giga:
A possible cause is to not unpack the files with their directory sructure. Everything but one-two files should be in the subdirectories bitmap/, data/, levels/ and replay/.

I'm thinking about recording the session tonight with Livestream. Edit: I have done that. See my next post for the links to the videos.

-- Simon

[geoo]

Heh, the wrapping is almost essential to make balanced levels with more than 2 player, especially if the number is odd. I went with analysis this semester though, though going by the exam result perhaps I should indeed have chosen algebra instead...

Having played quite a lot of games by now, I think I should finally drop a note here.

I have to admit, the purist as I am when it comes to physics, that I was initially somewhat sceptical; however the physics just feel right, and playing with other players isn't about executing obscure glitches after all... Playing is so exciting that I didn't notice the different style of the skillbar etc. at all; and objectively, it actually looks pretty nice!

While the games I had with Steve on the Amiga were already very good, the better control due to the lack of lag and the possibility to play custom levels made this even better. Tendency seems to be that Steve is winning an increasing percentage of games against me though. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" /> It's amazing how there's like a sheer endless number of possible strategies to each level, and again each of our custom levels had us play out new strategies... The potential of Steve's two route level surprised both of us.
I guess we could upload our levels so that they are available to anyone.
In regards to custom levels, I made another 2P one, extends the Fun 3 style one to 3P and 4P and created an additional 3P level.

As for coordinating 'meetings', I guess setting a date & time like Simon just did is the best way through the forum (in that regard, I'll be there at 20:00 today http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />). For more spontaneous occasions though perhaps we could share IM details, or even get an IRC channel allowing to talk at more than two.
Watching the video Simon recorded with Peter, another possible idea might be talking through Skype while playing, as it's nigh impossible to type being that busy with the game. Don't know how heavy it is on the connection due to the voice data to be transferred though.

[Simon]

Four chaotic hours of fun with geoo, Clam Spammer, minimac, Peter and Insane Steve. :-)

http://www.livestream.com/Eiderdaus/ondemand/pla_fb545e7a-97c4-4cd3-ba5b-6d5c881259ed?initthumburl=http://mogulus-user-files.s3.amazonaws.com/cheiderdaus/2009/10/20/b55f8d98-1054-45b0-b118-21aaa3ec7340_1750.jpg&playeraspectwidth=4&playeraspectheight=3&mogulusLogoEnabled=false" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Video, first part

http://www.livestream.com/Eiderdaus/ondemand/pla_50107edb-88b8-44cf-a725-93d6f06e28b4?initthumburl=http://mogulus-user-files.s3.amazonaws.com/cheiderdaus/2009/10/20/0771798f-5054-4f3e-8454-6d791ce9969f_170.jpg&playeraspectwidth=4&playeraspectheight=3&mogulusLogoEnabled=false" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Video, second part

-- Simon

[Clam]

There's no way my internet connection can handle that much video. Fortunately I saved some replays for myself http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

(wait a second - Insane Steve wasn't there, was he?)


Well... my first true multiplayer gaming experience. What can I say but... epic. Just epic. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />


A few things I noticed while I was playing, some good and some bad:

• Having different game mechanics to the original version really levels the playing field, by taking away a whole host of glitches that you could exploit on the Amiga version.
• Now that I've seen them in action, I can verify that knockback exploders are the way to go. Having a couple of non-Classic skills (Walker especially) is nice.
• World wrapping is rather confusing. On balance, it's probably for the best though. It helps to keep the game going for longer, instead of all the lemmings disappearing off the screen if you can't get them straight to the exit. And let's face it - with 3 guys wrecking your path, there's no way you're going to get straight to the exit. Also (as previously mentioned) good for balance.
• The pic of your lemming over the exit is much more useful than a flag. Good call on that one.
  
• The way the lemmings stand still for a moment when they hit the ground means you don't have to time your clicks perfectly on some moves (like placing a blocker that your lemmings walk past when they fall onto it). This is good.

And slightly less good...

• Some of the hotkeys for Classic skills are inconsistent. A couple of times, I hit F7 expecting a builder, and I got a blocker instead. I think Classic skills, where they are present, should always have the same hotkey and position on the toolbar.
• Apparently the splat height is the same as in the original game. However, with the size of the levels, this seems out of proportion. Especially when you consider that Lemmings 2 (from which some game mechanics are borrowed) has a huge safe fall distance. The "stunned" phase between safe and unsafe would be nice too.
  
• I thought the "overtime" was a little short on some levels. Personally, I think 1 minute should be a minimum across the board.
• Sometimes your lemmings go left from the start, and you don't know about it until the level starts. May I suggest putting arrows over the trapdoors to tell us which way the lemmings go?
• Would it be possible to add some more colours? I know you don't need more than 8, but it couldn't hurt to have more. (Plus grey and black look very similar.)

[chaos_defrost]

I played 1 game today, and I really wasn't there at all when I was playing it hahaha  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

Heh, I just watched the replay of that one game... Sorry, I didn't notice at the time http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

Just thought of something else - queueing builders is nice, but it would be nicer if we could un-queue them too (sometimes giving them a different skill isn't an option...)

[weirdybeardy]

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" /> I'm having trouble getting the game to work. I've downloaded it and extracted it, but when I load it straight from the .exe, I just get a black, unresponsive screen, which I can only exit by ctrl+alt+del... Do I need to reorganise the directories? Is it because of a resource the application can't access...?

[Simon]

Clam Spammer:
Thanks for the detailed review, I will probably come back to that soon!

weirdybeardy:
Try to run the game with the -w command line switch. This starts the game in windowed mode. (How to set a switch: Make a link to lpp.exe, right-click the link, select properties, and append " -w" (without quotes) after the target. Then use the link to run L++.)

If that works, go to the options and enter your desired fullscreen resolution in the corresponding two fields. Then run the game without the -w switch again. If fullscreen doesn't work at all, there's also an option to run the game always in windowed mode, even when not using -w.

-- Simon

[Clam]

I just noticed one of the replays I saved yesterday is corrupted. It was a 4-player level, but in the replay there are only three trapdoors and exits, and three players. And, if I recall the game correctly, it's my team that's gone missing (which means the colours are wrong as well). The other players' moves are messed up too... I've attached the replay file so you can see for yourself.


By the way, I have some custom levels under construction.

[chaos_defrost]

I may as well post my first three levels here. I have a 4th but it's not tested yet. All are 2 player levels.

[Clam]

Some issues with the editor now:

• How do you make a trapdoor drop lemmings to the left?
• Sometimes it asks me to save the level before exiting, even though I've just saved it. Then when I hit "no" and go back to the menu, the level is blank. I think this happened when I saved it in a lvl file (copied over from Lemmix) instead of a new txt file.
• Sometimes the terrain pieces seem to "group" together - when I click on a particular one, it selects a whole lot of others as well.
• Selection boxes mess up when I drag over a large area on a level with wrapping. They flip over when you get halfway around the level, and cover the other half instead.
• For consistency with Lemmix, I think it would be better for map sizes and terrain grids to be multiples of 8 (or 16 since everything is doubled here) instead of 10.

[Minim]

• How do you make a trapdoor drop lemmings to the left?

Maybe hide some terrain beneath it? I have two levels from lm_set13.dat which have left fallers. I'd be interested if you have a go at them, especially Level 5.

Edit: they only work on Lemmini. How sad.

[Simon]

How do you make a trapdoor drop lemmings to the left?

Lemmings will walk to the left iff all of these apply:
- The level is played in multiplayer,
- there is no horizontal wraparound and
- the trapdoor's lemming entry point is on the right half of the level.

I haven't made a custom directory selector for the hatches, as I've thought that the current system would work. It's not documented yet, however.

Sometimes it asks me to save the level before exiting, even though I've just saved it. Then when I hit "no" and go back to the menu, the level is blank. I think this happened when I saved it in a lvl file (copied over from Lemmix) instead of a new txt file.

The things are probably still written in the .LVL file, but in L++ format. If you rename the file to .TXT, it will be openend properly again, as the program uses the extension to determine the data format.

I should do something about this, as it is very irritating. Either implement saving LVLs natively, but this will be a problem in case they're played in Lemmix, as I neither read, use nor save steel areas. Or always make sure that trying to overwrite a LVL file always generates a new TXT file. Not relying on the extension is also good, but managing the file folders might become more uncertain for the user who uses Lemmix with the same files.

Sometimes the terrain pieces seem to "group" together - when I click on a particular one, it selects a whole lot of others as well.

If you're not using the frame-dragging button or its hotkey Shift, then it's a bug, although I haven't seen it before.

Selection boxes mess up when I drag over a large area on a level with wrapping. They flip over when you get halfway around the level, and cover the other half instead.

I still wonder what the best method is for determining what way the user wants to select things. Do they also wrap around when they fit on a single screen? In that case, it should always go with the rectangle that doesn't go offscreen.

For consistency with Lemmix, I think it would be better for map sizes and terrain grids to be multiples of 8 (or 16 since everything is doubled here) instead of 10.

Very good thing, I will swap the 5 for the 16. I need the 10 in some cases for my self-drawn objects.

---

Steve:
Thanks, I will add those levels into the next version, so everybody can select them from their folder.

geoo:
Not copying the physics from L1/ONML/... exactly was actually my biggest fear when I thought about presenting my game on these forums in the past. If they're playable and fun, and even feel nice for regulars here - then that's really good. :-)

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

Not copying the physics from L1/ONML/... exactly was actually my biggest fear when I thought about presenting my game on these forums in the past. If they're playable and fun, and even feel nice for regulars here - then that's really good. :-)

L1/ONML mechanics is overrated.  Just ask CustLemm level makers the bane of steel destruction glitches. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Or the mystery of exits not working, levels crashing due to steel areas sticking outside the level boundaries, etc., before the days of Lemmix's level validator.  And don't forget that there's Cheapo, which has been pretty popular for a while on the old old forums.

[Clam]

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/agree.gif" alt=":agree:" title="I Agree!" class="smiley" />

Although, unfortunately, it does make some existing custom levels unplayable. For example, I just found that "Bumpy Ride" is impossible due to the different slope-walking mechanics. Also, the screen start positions are messed up.

Lemmings will walk to the left iff all of these apply:
- The level is played in multiplayer,
- there is no horizontal wraparound and
- the trapdoor's lemming entry point is on the right half of the level.

Did you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iff" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">iff, of just if? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

Anyway, I can see a situation where it would be better to let the level designer choose, rather than trying to guess their intentions. If you want to make a 2-player level (or perhaps 2v2) with wrapping, for example, it might be better to make the two teams run into each other at the start rather than chasing each other around the map.

The things are probably still written in the .LVL file, but in L++ format. If you rename the file to .TXT, it will be openend properly again, as the program uses the extension to determine the data format.

Oh... well, it's a bit late now, but that works.

If you're not using the frame-dragging button or its hotkey Shift, then it's a bug, although I haven't seen it before.

Well, to be fair, it only happened once. But it did make things rather difficult when it happened. Whenever I clicked on this one bit of terrain (I didn't use Shift), it selected a bunch of nearby terrain pieces. Even when dragging a selection box including a couple of other pieces, selecting this one triggered the glitch.

I still wonder what the best method is for determining what way the user wants to select things. Do they also wrap around when they fit on a single screen? In that case, it should always go with the rectangle that doesn't go offscreen.

They wrap around when I scroll across while dragging. Interestingly, it seems to behave differently depending on which direction I drag it - if I drag to the right, when it switches over I can then drag it to the left edge of the screen and select a whole "band" of terrain. This doesn't appear to work in any other direction.