Here I Go Again!

[ccexplore]

I've attached a custom level to this post, fresh from the editor.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> It's decompressed and it replaces Highland level 1. Please could somebody give it run through to see if all the objects are in place...?

Finally got around to this.  Awesome!  It looks like the bug is on PCL2ED's end, because all the objects are there when I played the level in the game, but just about all the objects for the left half of the level are missing in PCL2ED.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

It's not exactly a proper level, it's just a test-level I threw together in a short space of time. Feedback would be greatly appreciated!

It was quite good for something you "just threw together"! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> It's not hard to solve for gold, but it did end up taking up more skills than I had expected when I was done.

[I've attached the compressed version of the level file here, if anyone wants to play the level w/o bothering with lem2zip.exe themselves.  As weirdybeardy said, it replaces Highland 1 in the game.]

You've also proven that PCL2ED and PCL2STAT together is a workable interim solution for creating real custom levels for Lemmings 2.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> When I have time later this weekend, I'll see if I can go about extending PCL2STAT to integrate better with lem2zip and PCL2ED.  (For example, imagine a button in PCL2STAT that launches PCL2ED for you without making you go through the command line.)  It would also be ideal if PCL2ED can look for decompressed style files in a separate directory from the Styles directory, so that the original compressed style files don't have to be moved.  (That, or have PCL2ED handle the compression/decompression itself.)

[geoo]

Actually, neither styles not levels need to be compressed for Lemmings 2 to handle them, as it seems it detects whether the file is compressed or not and acts accordingly. So you don't need to recompress the files each time you want to play.
But with Mindless having provided the lem2zip code, I could have a go at implementing this.

Ok, half of the objects not displaying was an issue when reading the file that only 32 objects were read due to the counter being incremented twice. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> Fix: http://geoo.digibase.ca/PCL2ED/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://geoo.digibase.ca/PCL2ED/
I'll also look into the possible memory leaks; there sure is a lot of stuff not deallocated which is not graphics related; but I'll look whether some graphics related data isn't deallocated as well. Though I thought GLut would handle that when the app is closed. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

Interesting level btw, I ended up using all ropers due to some mistakes I made, and the design sure looks well put together.

And now we also know what the steel exit is for, I didn't know about the normal exit not working on top of steel.

[weirdybeardy]

@geoo: Thanks again.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

I'm really getting the hang of the editor now. I'm working on a Circus level. Might release it into the wild in a couple of days.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> Again, it's not what I consider a "proper" level with a "proper" puzzle. It's just a result of me having too much fun with the software.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> With 52 skills to play with, as well as swings and cannons and stuff, can you really blame me??

[GuyPerfect]

[...] there sure is a lot of stuff not deallocated [...]

I keep several flasks of holy water and a case of silver buckshot (had to special order it) handy for just such an occasion.

[weirdybeardy]

Okay, here we go: my first attempt at a "real" custom level for Lemmings 2: The Tribes. It's titled "The Show Must Go On!", it replaces Circus level 1 and the first person to get the gold medal wins a lollipop!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

Please give it a playtest and let me know;
a) whether it's any good, easy, difficult, fun, boring, etc
b) if you noticed any glitches or possible problems that might effect custom level building
c) anything else that springs to mind  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

I'm going to try to tear myself away from PCL2ED for a while, take a break from it all and see how this thread unfolds...

Buh-bye for now!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

[Isu]

A Lemmings 2 DOS editor? Well, it's about time.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

I got the gold, but I think it must be a backroute, since it involves fencing through the ceiling.

Fill the first hole. Turn the first lemming into a fencer just before he turns around. One this lemming has fenced far enough, turn it into a miner to end up in the chamber to the left of the exit chamber. Make a lemming jump out of the hole and fence through the wall. mine through the last wall and rope up to the exit, fill the hole the lemnings are trapped by.

I found this soultion was too easy, and none of the rest of the terrain is used, which was dissappoint. But of course if this is not what's intended then that's pretty much given. I also noticed that the bottom of the two exits don't work, so I needed to get a lemming ahead to rope up to the top one.

[Clam]

Damn, if GP keeps messing us around I'm gonna have to try this editor too...

Okay, here we go: my first attempt at a "real" custom level for Lemmings 2: The Tribes.

Is the lower exit supposed to be a fake? 'Cause no one likes fake exits. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> Anyway, I solved the level, and I bypassed all the chains and cannons so my solution is probably a backroute. (Quite similar to Isu's - though his was even easier)

[ccexplore]

Damn, if GP keeps messing us around I'm gonna have to try this editor too...

Keep in mind that http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=176.msg4982#msg4982" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">the original stated goal of GuyPerfect's project isn't just about a level editor for Lemmings 2; one could even say that the level editor is merely a side product. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" /> So there's really no telling how much waiting you're gonna do; in the meanwhile, you might as well get your feet wet with what we have now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Right now I'm working on having my program interoperate with geoo's editor and Mindless's file decompressor.  Once finished, the 3 separate programs will work together so that you won't have to deal with decompressing files yourself or type in the filename on a command line prompt.

Is the lower exit supposed to be a fake? 'Cause no one likes fake exits. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

To be fair, it really might just be an honest mistake related to http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=176.msg6886#msg6886" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">the recent discovery about object triggers overwritable by other overlapping objects.

[GuyPerfect]

Is the lower exit supposed to be a fake? 'Cause no one likes fake exits. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

I had a simple solution getting all the Lemmings to the lower exit, but they didn't go out. I'll consider this one a "successful 100% run of a moderate difficulty puzzle" unless the exit is supposed to be a fake, in which case I'll declare it a "waste of time." (-:

Keep in mind that http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=176.msg4982#msg4982" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">the original stated goal of GuyPerfect's project isn't just about a level editor for Lemmings 2; one could even say that the level editor is merely a side product. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" /> So there's really no telling how much waiting you're gonna do; in the meanwhile, you might as well get your feet wet with what we have now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Thank you. For this, I will forget your obnoxious skepticism from earlier and post all the updates from the last couple of weeks:

• To make sure everything was rounded out, I decided to make one level for each Tribe and fix any problems I encountered along the way.
• The Beach level was the initial test of the new picker system. I also started off testing the maximum level size (height with given width), and I found the bottom few rows of tiles didn't draw to the screen when played, but the Lemmings still interacted with the terrain. I subsequently investigated and found the logic determining how many rows of tiles will be drawn.
• The Cavelem level was a tailor-made examination of the "reveal mode" feature to ensure that all pixels were shown correctly as terrain, steel, water, traps or whatever else. The leaf hanging down on the bottom left of the entry area made me pleased with its one-pixel Glue Pourer interception capability. Additionally, I introduced a "feature" pixel type that is applied to the dinosaurs, trampolines and other objects that interact with the Lemmings.
• Although "Circus" comes between "Cavelem" and "Classic" alphabetically, the way I was handling the drawing of exit objects prevented the Circus exit specifically from being seen, placed or relocated. Just today I modified the program to handle all exits--normal as well as "on steel blocks" varieties--and Circus levels can be made now. I haven't prepared one yet, however.
• The Classic stage was just an excuse to use non-Classic skills on the Classic style. It seems I accidentally made a good puzzle out of it, but the solution was farily obvious to me when I devised it...

.
Next on the list is to make a sweep through all the tribes and label all the "feature" elements as well as determine the location offsets for storing certain objects in the level files.

http://perfectkiosk.net/lemmings/Reveal2.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

[Dullstar]

Are you really so keen on making this bug free that you can't bear to release it as a beta/alpha version?

[GuyPerfect]

Refraining from making any clever jabs at your impatience, I should point out that there are no real interface implementations to allow the user to navigate between presets and objects, to toggle background status, to specify the zoom level or even to save the current level-in-progress. These are all done with temporary keyboard commands that certainly aren't suitible for public use.

[weirdybeardy]

Is the lower exit supposed to be a fake? 'Cause no one likes fake exits.  Anyway, I solved the level, and I bypassed all the chains and cannons so my solution is probably a backroute. (Quite similar to Isu's - though his was even easier)

Oops. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" /> Damn. It would appear that I suck. If the lower exit doesn't work I suppose I could switch it for an empty pit for the lemmings to get trapped in, 'cos it sounds like the top exit is the one reached by the backroute anyway. Speaking of the backroute, I could remedy that with a cheap fix involving steel and empty space and whatever. I say "could" because right now I can't be bothered and I'm happy to leave my pseudo-level as "a waste of time" (as GuyPerfect described it, and rightly so  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> ).

I am but a lowly novice. But I guess my dabblings have shown what's possible with PCL2ED, so my thanks to geoo for that.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> And thanks to everyone for giving it a go.

@GuyPerfect: This is supposed to be your thread, so I'm sorry if I hijacked it slightly.

[GuyPerfect]

Eh, it's just an "Edit Lemmings 2" thread for now. No reason others can't chime in with alternate projects. When I move onto Lemmings 3, I'll probably start a new thread anyway.

Though I am curious... If these other programs have been around for a while, and the people who maintain them are still active and able to work on them, then why has it taken until just now for all the pieces to be put together into something useable? Though I know it's unlikely that it's out of spite, I'd like to think that it went something along the lines of "Hey, one person's doing all by himself what we could have done together all along. Let's spite him!"

Oh well. Anything to motivate productivity, I guess. (-:

[Mindless]

Though I know it's unlikely that it's out of spite, I'd like to think that it went something along the lines of "Hey, one person's doing all by himself what we could have done together all along. Let's spite him!"

Ah, that's your own fault though.  You're taunting us with an editor only you have access to.  Other people want to play with your toys too, and if you won't share... really, what did you expect?

[ccexplore]

Though I am curious... If these other programs have been around for a while, and the people who maintain them are still active and able to work on them, then why has it taken until just now for all the pieces to be put together into something useable? Though I know it's unlikely that it's out of spite, I'd like to think that it went something along the lines of "Hey, one person's doing all by himself what we could have done together all along. Let's spite him!"

OMG you're so full of yourself.  I have nothing more to say to you......ever

=============================

Anyway, as I alluded to http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=176.msg6831#msg6831" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">earlier, it might be a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing, where because we have LemEdit and the like, but nothing for Lemmings 2, the majority of expressed interest is on Lemmings 1, which in turn lessens motivation for things like Lemmings 2 editor and such ("why spend time on that when there're so many exciting things going on already in L1-world?").  The fact that the forums had historically frequently gone dark doesn't help...I for one haven't heard of PCL2ED (nor the fact that much of the file formats for L2 have actually be deciphered already) until like maybe last month or so.  And first experiences with PCL2ED was less than encouraging, though it's a bit surprising now that we see how a few bugfixes make such a huge difference.

And yes, you starting this project has obviously drummed up lots of expressed public interest on Lemmings 2 custom levels, and then naturally, the longer your editor remains unreleased, the more likely people will start looking further into existing tools to see what they can do in the meanwhile.  I mean, what else would one expect?  Your releasing various custom levels for Lemmings 2 only puts further motiviation and drive in that direction.  I feel rather sorry that you'd actually think this is some sort of conspiracy to annoy you. http://www.phpbb.com/community/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt="" class="bbc_img" />