The level design game!

[ccexplore]

Okay, ugh, now to talk about what is or isn't a glitch:

  * nuke glitch is a glitch (nuking the level before all lemmings are released, the game only counts the percentage based on lemmings released so far, not total number of lemmings the level gives you)

  * direct-drop is not a glitch (a lemming landing on an exit trigger from a too-high fall it would normally splat and die from)

  * using blockers to cancel out the effects of steel areas and object trigger areas is a glitch

  * using the trick of separating the blocker's field from the blocker lemming itself is a glitch

  * okay, here's one that's a pain to decide:  terrain pixels being removed that falls under a steel area or the trigger area of a one-way-wall.  The problem is that Lemmings, unlike Cheapo. fundamentally does not work that way.  Terrain pixels removal is an all-or-nothing proposition, and the decision rests on things like whether the lemming was standing on steel, or has steel/OWW in front of him at a certain distance.

There's unfortunately a whole spectrum of examples, some of which most would agree glitchy, others not so clear cut.  Since right now we say we don't care about any glitch solutions that uses 2 or less (or 7 or less) skills, we could take a hardline approach and say that in the 3+/7+ skill solution with no glitches, you're not allowed to remove any terrain pixels that falls under a steel area, or the trigger area of a one-way-wall when the lemming is facing the opposite way.  Note that this is much stricter than usual, since something like having a miner turn when he mines into steel, that can easily break this "strict" form of the rule, since a few pixels covered by the steel area is removed at the miner stroke that hits steel.

Other approaches is to either say we don't care, or have some really detailed conditions like "at most one stroke of the miner/basher/digger can remove terrain pixels covered by steel/OWW-the-wrong-way".  This still leaves the question of exploders.

  * all forms of miner-positioning glitches are not allowed.  Even this one is really hard to specify exactly, but we'll say that it's a glitch if there is ground for the miner to stand on, but he falls anyway because of the positioning error.  There's also the issue that the miner can skip over one-pixel-wide gaps because of the way the game checks for falling for the miner.

  * using blockers to push lemmings into or through walls is a glitch
  * the sliding glitch (making a lemming jump up a 6-or-less-pixels-tall step, but using a builder to turn it into a taller step before the jump is complete, the lemming keeps jumping nonetheless) is a glitch

Ugh, have I covered everything yet?  Probably not. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />  For example, what about the various cases where the game lets you assign skills while the lemming is standing on thin air?  What about the lemming started off on ground, but while carrying out the skill (eg. bashing or building), the ground is removed in the middle of laying the build brick or removing terrain?

You can begin to see what a nightmare it is to fully define what is or isn't a glitch.  I think the only way to handle this is to say that one tries to avoid the glitches, but leaves it for namida to decide whether something's a glitch or not, within reason.  I know this smacks of subjectivity but I see little other choice. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />  Hopefully, in practice this might not be much of problem, given that many of the glitches you would probably need to go out of your way to enable it to happen in a level.

[ccexplore]

Okay, I've thought of an interesting way to potentially take care of the glitch definition issue, but it could add some work for testing the level:

A glitch means the same solution (sans timing differences) does not work on Cheapo.

I think in most cases, it would be obviously enough to tell whether something works on Cheapo or not without actually testing it, but I agree while extremely simple to define, it is perhaps not the ideal way to clarify the rule about no glitches.

[ccexplore]

Okay, ignoring some of the potential issues with the rules, here's my level for namida's challenge.

I know the level handles all 9 types of solutions; the main question is whether there are any backroutes I overlooked that somehow allows solving the level with only 2 of one type of skills, or with less than 8 skills when given only 1 of each type.

Lemmix replays are in the zip file (CustLemm style).  For benefit of those who don't/can't use Lemmix, I've included a screenshot of the level.  The fixed level stats are:  RR 99, save 8 of 16.

Anyone who needs more information on the solutions can just PM me.

[Clam]

namida? Are you going to confirm this level or what? Sorry to be impatient, but surely you've had an opportunity to check this, since you've been posting here and building levels...

[namida]

- whether it is acceptable or not that there is a solution using less than required number of skills but also uses glitches.  For example, we clearly don't allow the all-climbers version of the level to be solvable with only 2 climbers and no glitches, but what about 2 climbers plus glitches?  Or similarly, whether it's acceptable that the 1-of-each-skill version of the level allows for a 7-skill solution using glitches.  My rewording assumes "yes, that's okay" as the answer to all that, because in your original rules, you talked about "all qualifying solutions" when you talk about glitches.

Acceptable. Glitch solutions don't count either way. Actually, it doesn't even matter if there's another solution that plain and simple uses 2 or less, as long as you can do it in 3 without any skill wasting. Using Fun 3 as an example, skill wasting would be putting a second blocker just to the left of the first one, just to use up another skill. Using the 5-blocker route instead of the 3-blocker route would not be skill wasting, since each blocker still performs a function.

- whether for the 1-of-each-skill version of the level, you actually required 8 skills as the minimum, or just 3 of the 8 skills as your original rules imply.  I'm reading between the lines and assume that you meant to require an 8-skill minimum for that part of the rules, not 3.

No, I meant that you need 3.


And yes, ccexplore, your level most certianly does qualify. Took me a while to work out the one-of-each solution too.

[Clam]

That was ccexplore's level, but whatever. I'm more than happy to take credit for it http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

[namida]

Ugh, my bad. >_> Fixed it now.

[ccexplore]

Do I have the floor now?  I'll throw my newer idea out there.

The level must be able to be beaten in three of the challenge threads.  I believe these are the ones that I remember that don't deal with "minimum skills," "minimum time," and whatnot.

Um, Dullstar? Have you forgotten what we said about your previous challenge (besides the fact that the rules were too subjective)?

To be fair, I think it can be made objective if Dullstar simply spells out the exact conditions required by each challenge thread, which I think he pretty much did.

The funny thing is though, I think my level for namida's challenge actually covers every challenge condition Dullstar has listed. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />  Then again, so is a level that simply sends a stream of lemmings directly to the exit, since Dullstar neglected to say anything about wasting skills or level being too easy. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

That's nice, but...

do you have a new challenge for us?

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Oh right, I forgot I have the floor now.

As expected, I'd like you to issue the next challenge that you had been working on.

[Clam]

All right, I've been hyping this one for too long now. (Maybe not intentionally, but still...)


Build a level where...

You have to hit the nuke, and then use a bomber, in order to complete the level.
The level must require at least 10 lemmings to be saved.
No blockers allowed. (For reasons that will be clear to many of you)

Or, to clarify a little by rewording the first point - if the level can be completed in any way that doesn't use a bomber after the nuke is launched, then it fails the challenge.

[namida]

Just to clarify something: May other skills (possibly including other bombers) be used before the nuke? What about after it?

[Clam]

You can use any other skills (other than blockers) before or after the nuke. All that matters is that you can't complete the level without using at least one bomber after the nuke.

[ccexplore]

Possibly the most unconventional level yet seen in this thread.

To properly understand how my level works, you must examine the steel areas.  You'd note that pretty much the entire level is covered in steel except for two key spots.  Also, there are two isolated pixels of terrain that can be hard to see with the exit object being displayed over them, one at the exit's trigger area's upper-left corner, and another one a couple pixels up, which are also key to the design of the level.

If you need an explanation of why the level works the way it does, PM me.  The level should do what you asked as long as I haven't overlooked something.  Attached Lemmix replay recorded with CustLemm style.

[Clam]

Heh, that works, I guess. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

Here is my (somewhat more "normal") level for this challenge.