The level design game!

[ccexplore]

The bolded text suggests you think the spelling L-a-b-o-r is wrong, even if that wasn't the intended effect.

Actually, since ClamSpammer is specifically referring to New Zealand's version of Labour Day, it would be appropriate to spell it following the conventions of that locale.  That's what the bold is for.

And I can't believe you'd pick on something as innocuous as a bolded letter. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

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And I don't think you fully understand the problem with your rules.  At a certain level, things like "obviousness", "difficulty to find", "similarity to existing levels" cannot be measured in an objective manner.  (Note for example that it might not be that difficult to remake a level using a different style, so the terrain is completely different yet conceptually the same.)  As such, anyone who tries your challenge would either need to be able to read your mind, or risk creating something that in their opinion fits the rules, but in your opinion doesn't.

Of course, anyone who feels this is an acceptable risk is welcome to go for it.  I'll try to provide an alternate challenge that has more objective rules, although at the moment it looks like interest in this game has died off rather suddenly, so I'll probably give this a rest until enough people clamor for something.

[Clam]

I should be able to get back into this later today. I just struck a few deadlines at the same time (such is the nature of study...)

I'll try to solve your "extra credit" puzzle first, so there's no hurry to invent a new one.

[Dullstar]

Okay, I removed that text...  moving right along.

Okay, because of this disagreement here, we'll give effort points if they explain the routes in a block of "spoiler" text, so they'll get equal credit for trying if they don't succeed.

[Yawg]

I have to agree with Ccexplore on this one. The nature of this challenge is that it requires subjective judging, and as such is not fair to those who may attempt it. All challenges that have come before it were clearly defined and it was possible to judge them objectively. This thread is going nowhere as long as the "challenge" is to discern an individual's definition of "obvious" or "not completely obvious".

I suggest amending the rules to correct this; All challenges must be made up of a number of objective conditions. That is, conditions that anyone could follow in order to judge an attempt, not just the person that created the challenge.

While the current challenge in question isn't too ambiguous, the current wording of the rules allows for more extreme examples, like asking for "a small puzzle that can be solved quickly". This is obviously an exaggeration, but you can see why we would want to prevent this sort of thing.

[Yawg]

Well, I wasn't going to touch this challenge because of the subjectivity of it, but I got super bored. So here's an example of a straightforward level with a less-than-obvious back route.

SPOILER:

Primary solution: separate a lemming and have him bash and build to the exit. 
Back route: Build inside the box and then bash and build quickly to climb to the exit through the wall.

[Clam]

I suggest amending the rules to correct this; All challenges must be made up of a number of objective conditions. That is, conditions that anyone could follow in order to judge an attempt, not just the person that created the challenge.

Done. This is what I meant from the start, of course. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Thankfully, everyone has managed to play along until now.

[Clam]

All right, here is my attempt at ccexplore's/Insane Steve's challenge. Level file and two replays attached.

If this passes good, and we're done with Dullstar's challenge, then it's open floor. I have a crazy idea for a challenge, but... well, it's too crazy even for me http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Yeah, this looks good to me, I've found no backroutes and it meets all the rules.  Here's mine.

[ccexplore]

I have a crazy idea for a challenge, but... well, it's too crazy even for me http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

Wow, now you really got my attention.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" /> We'll keep it open floor, but why not tell us your idea anyway, and see if anyone manages to actually make it work?  Sorta like another extra credit.

[namida]

Since it's open floor...

Build a level that can be solved in 8 or fewer of ANY single skill, and can also be solved with no more than one of each skill.

To clarify, this means:
1) It would be possible if you're given 8 climbers and nothing else.
2) It would be possible if you're given 8 floaters and nothing else.
3) It would be possible if you're given 8 bombers and nothing else.
4) And so on, for every other skill. PLUS:
5) It would be possible if you're given 1 of each skill.

The solutions do not have to use all 8 skills. For example, if it can be solved with just 6 blockers, this is fine.

Rules:
1) No more than two entrances
2) No more than four exits
3) None of the qualifying solutions may use glitches (except direct drop, if you count that as a glitch - I don't)
4) You must be required to save at least 5 lemmings.
5) All solutions must require at least 3 skills.

[Dullstar]

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />  Sorry about the lame idea for a challenge...

namida's shouldn't be too hard...  but I don't have too much time for Lemmix editing to make a good looking level.  Well...

Yes, I know the file attached is called Reverse-a-Dig and it's a Cheapo level.  I just made it.  Boy, I hope Cheapo is allowed in this contest...  if not, I've submitted it anyways.

EDIT:  Probably not, so I'll redo it in Lemmix...
UPDATE:  Done!  Same solution...  I think it turned out slightly differently though, but the solution is not altered.

Do I have the floor now?  I'll throw my newer idea out there.

The level must be able to be beaten in three of the challenge threads.  I believe these are the ones that I remember that don't deal with "minimum skills," "minimum time," and whatnot.

• What levels can be beaten with a 99 release rate?
• What levels can be beaten with only one of each skill? (note:  This one may require editing the level, the level's default skill set does NOT need to work with with challenge)
• What levels can be beaten in under 1 minute?
• What levels can be beaten without assigning multiple skills to one lemming?
• What levels can be beaten without assigning skills to more than one lemming?
• What levels can be beaten with only one type of skill?

I believe those are all the challenge threads we have (other than the minimum/maximum of whatever challenge threads).  The level must fit at least three of those threads (other than the fact that it's not an official level, but...)

Don't get too hard though!  Too hard will be if both Clam Spammer and ccexplore can't solve it.  Direct drop is the only glitch allowed.  Please note your solution in spoiler text.

[Clam]

Wow, now you really got my attention.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" /> We'll keep it open floor, but why not tell us your idea anyway, and see if anyone manages to actually make it work?  Sorta like another extra credit.

Ah ha. Got it working now. I'll post this when I next get an opportunity. I hope it's not too difficult - I don't think it is, though.

[Clam]

Do I have the floor now?  I'll throw my newer idea out there.

The level must be able to be beaten in three of the challenge threads.  I believe these are the ones that I remember that don't deal with "minimum skills," "minimum time," and whatnot.

Um, Dullstar? Have you forgotten what we said about your previous challenge (besides the fact that the rules were too subjective)?

Also, it's quite likely that someone can easily find a level from the official games (Lemmings, ONML, etc.) that will satisfy your criteria.  Even if you ban those levels, someone could probably create a level based off of an existing level, and then we'd end up with no agreement over how much it must differ from an existing level to count.

This applies here too. There are a lot of original levels that can be done with three, or even all six, of those challenge conditions. It might be possible to create a new challenge by combining these in a way that hasn't been done before (saying "yes" or "no" to each one in turn), but as it is, this is nothing new.

[ccexplore]

Yes, I know the file attached is called Reverse-a-Dig and it's a Cheapo level.  I just made it.  Boy, I hope Cheapo is allowed in this contest...  if not, I've submitted it anyways.

EDIT:  Probably not, so I'll redo it in Lemmix...
UPDATE:  Done!  Same solution...  I think it turned out slightly differently though, but the solution is not altered.

Your level does not satisfy namida's challenge.  If you read the rules better, you'd note that your level needs to have at least 9 distinct solutions:

1) a solution using only up to 8 climbers and nothing else
2) a solution using only up to 8 floaters and nothing else
3) a solution using only up to 8 blockers and nothing else
4) a solution using only up to 8 exploders and nothing else
5) a solution using only up to 8 builders and nothing else
6) a solution using only up to 8 bashers and nothing else
7) a solution using only up to 8 miners and nothing else
8) a solution using only up to 8 diggers and nothing else
9) a solution using only 1 of each skill

Unless I overlooked something, right now your level only handles #7 and #8, and I guess #9 (although I think we need some clarification from namida on #9, like whether skill-wasting counts).  [edit: actually, probably not even #7 or #8, since you're required to enforce a 3-skill minimum, while your level right now can be solved with just one digger or just 2 miners.]

[ccexplore]

I'm going to try rewording namida's rules for the challenge to make it crystal clear what is required:

Create a level that:

1) has no more than 2 entrance objects
2) has no more than 4 exit objects
3) number of lemmings to be saved must be 5 or higher
4) the level needs to have 9 distinct solutions:
  a) if you change the skillset so that it is only 8 climbers and nothing else, keeping the initial RR, time limit, number of lemmings, and number to saved the same (as well as the terrain, objects, and steel), the resulting level must have at least one solution that uses 3 or more climbers and no glitches.

In addition, there must be no solutions using 2 or less climbers and no glitches in the resulting level.

It's acceptable if there are solutions using 2 or less climbers but also requires glitches in the resulting level.

  b) if you change the skillset so that it is only 8 floaters and nothing else, keeping the initial RR, time limit, number of lemmings, and number to saved exactly the same (as well as the terrain, objects, and steel), the resulting level must have at least one solution that uses 3 or more floaters and no glitches.

In addition, there must be no solutions using 2 or less floaters and no glitches in the resulting level.

It's acceptable if there are solutions using 2 or less floaters but also requires glitches in the resulting level.

c-h) <repeat the above template for "blockers", "exploders", "builders", "bashers", "miners", and "diggers">

  i) if you change the skillset so that it gives you exactly one of each skill, keeping the initial RR, time limit number of lemmings, and number to saved exactly the same (as well as the terrain, objects, and steel), the resulting level must have at least one solution that uses up all 8 skills and no glitches.

In addition, there must be no solutions using less than 8 skills and no glitches in the resulting level.

It's acceptable if there are solutions using less than 8 skills but also requires glitches in the resulting level.

Two points I need namida to clarify on is:

- whether it is acceptable or not that there is a solution using less than required number of skills but also uses glitches.  For example, we clearly don't allow the all-climbers version of the level to be solvable with only 2 climbers and no glitches, but what about 2 climbers plus glitches?  Or similarly, whether it's acceptable that the 1-of-each-skill version of the level allows for a 7-skill solution using glitches.  My rewording assumes "yes, that's okay" as the answer to all that, because in your original rules, you talked about "all qualifying solutions" when you talk about glitches.

- whether for the 1-of-each-skill version of the level, you actually required 8 skills as the minimum, or just 3 of the 8 skills as your original rules imply.  I'm reading between the lines and assume that you meant to require an 8-skill minimum for that part of the rules, not 3.

- there will likely be many questions regarding what exactly is a glitch and not a glitch, and unfortunately, to spell it all out explicitly might turn the rules into a page-long tome.  I'll talk about this in another post

[edit: loosen the condition regarding glitches and number of skills]
[edit2: formatted the rules to improve readability]
[edit3: added issues with defining glitches]
[edit4: forgot to mention "time limit" as part of the level stats that are fixed across all 9 versions of the level]