Most out-of-place levels

[Proxima]

I think the point of that level is that since there are no blockers nor diggers, you are forced to think about a different way to hold back the crowd, instead of the usual two ways already drilled into the player's head at this point (eg. blockers obviously, and the digger's pit).  True, not exactly difficult or cutting edge, but still shows that it's not just a thoughtless repeat of an earlier level.

Digger's pit? I can't see a single level that "drills this into the player's head". With hindsight it's certainly the easiest way to solve some levels (Taxing 11!!!) but when I was solving the levels originally I used miners every single time to contain the crowd on 100% levels (only taking a short break to use a basher on Taxing 8 ).

In reply to the post you made while I was typing this, isn't the player is virtually certain to have seen that there's nothing behind the left Xs while solving the Fun version?

[ccexplore]

Digger's pit? I can't see a single level that "drills this into the player's head".

Hmm okay, maybe it just happens to be my style of playing, although surely you remember Taxing 3 don't you? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />  Or did you use a miner there too?

I think I avoided using miners to hold the crowd back when I was playing, because miners are slower, takes up more space to get the desired effect, and they only block the crowd one way.  I'm sorry to hear that you actually used miners for Taxing 11, that must've been rather unpleasant.

In reply to the post you made while I was typing this, isn't the player is virtually certain to have seen that there's nothing behind the left Xs while solving the Fun version?

True, but then depending on the player's thought process, one could easily come to either the conclusion that "it must be the remaining X!" or that "the Xs are all just red herrings, the exit is hidden some other place".  I do suppose together with the title the former conclusion is more likely.  Still, requiring the hidden exit seems to rather cheapen the level, without making it any harder to work out and execute.

[Proxima]

I used lots of miners to solve Taxing 3 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> It's not for nothing that it gives you 30 of everything!

And yes, Taxing 11 was hard, but I wouldn't call it unpleasant; it was certainly a feeling of immense achievement when I cracked it!

[Clam]

Vacation in Gemland is out of place in a Xmas game. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

LOL http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> That's why it's called Vacation in Gemland.

And I'm surprised this coming from a New Zealander, who should know better than anyone that not every place on Earth has Xmas during winter. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

There is Christmas South of the Equator, you know. And we still have Christmas pudding (in the game and IRL), however inappropriate it is for the middle of summer. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

[namida]

...you're from NZ too, Clam?

[Minim]

Just look at his profile.

Anyway: Some 3D Lemmings level are out of place. Here they are:

32: Dot to Dot: Yes, it's big but it's too easy.
38: Play Time: Quite a bit too hard for Tricky
42: Picky Platform: I was completely stumped at that one. Too hard for early Taxing.
43: Let the Race begin: Way too easy. Should be Fun.
46: Ricochet: Still too easy
57: T minus five and Counting: Such a stupid level. It's either too easy or too hard.
58: Snake: Too easy, and repetitive. End of story.
62: Brechin's staircase: THIS, IS, TOO, EASY!
74: Jelly Belly Islands: Includes a backroute which makes the level easier.

[namida]

Many of the L3D levels have backroutes. Those I can remember off the top of my head:

Fun 8 - Lemmings Inside
Fun 19 - Attack of the 50ft Lemming
Tricky 29 - Land Ahoy (debatable, the backroute is harder than the normal solution but clearly unintended)
Tricky 32 - Dot to Dot
Tricky 39 - Stilt Walkers
Taxing 41 - Spaghetti Junction
Taxing 45 - 3D: A Lemming Odyssey
Taxing 60 - Death Slide
Mayhem 63 - Tower of Lemlab
Mayhem 66 - Family Tree
Mayhem 67 - Driving Range
Mayhem 71 - Across The Network
Mayhem 74 - Jelly Belly Islands
Mayhem 80 - Final Maze

[chaos_defrost]

ONML is a LOT worse than original Lemmings for what it's worth:

Crazy 2: Not terrible, but still rather hard to execute for such an early "serious" level in the game.
Crazy 7: Near pixel precision this early in the game? This is really freaking hard for its position, though not as bad as...
Crazy 10: A HAVOC CALIBRE LEVEL. In the 2nd tier. This is harder than all levels in Wild, All Wicked levels but Wicked 10, and at least half the Havoc levels. When I solved this I felt so amazingly well, except all the later levels in the set were so ridiculously underwhelming are beating this. It's a very well-made puzzle, but I mean come on middle of the 2nd tier out of 5? Really?
Crazy 11-20: LOL at all of these after beating Crazy 10 >_<
Wild 3: So I got to Wicked 10 and Havoc 10 before beating this. Really. The precision required to do this stage is really deceptive. And this is hand enough to place the skills to be at least Wicked.
Wild 10: Such a horrifically lazy level. Also easier than everything in Crazy except maybe Crazy 11.
Wild 11: Oh and then after that we get the hardest level in the set. Again, I find this harder to pass than most of the Havoc set. Ridiculous builder precision for this early in the game and there's a lot you have to think about to pass it.
Wild 17: uhhhhhhh if you know ANY way to stop a crowd without blockers (or you know how to free a blocker) this is a total joke.
Wicked 1: I like being able to pass the first level of a set without it being harder than most of the set, yea. Got that, Taxing/Mayhem from Lemmings 1? Guess not.
Wicked 9: Huh, this is easy just due to complete lack of any other solutions but the right one. Crazy 2 is harder.
Wicked 10: Hey this belongs in second half of Havoc too. I had so much difficulty passing this level as a kid. Again, a great puzzle ruined by being too early in the game.
Wicked 12-14: Ok these are all really freaking easy, especially 14. Seriously, you except these to be any challenge at all after 10 (and, to an extent, 11)?
Havoc 3: There's about 6,000 different ways to do this. Based on the title, it seems you had one specific answer in mind. Huh. Very easy, demote to Crazy.
Havoc 4: What's with all these really freaking hard levels right after or before really freaking easy levels? This is one of the 5 hardest levels in the game -- unforgiving multitasking, a very short timer, and a completely not obvious solution. Yea, much this back plx
Havoc 6: easyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasyeasy
Havoc 9: One of my favorite levels in the game, but still very easy for its rating.
Havoc 13: ...

At least all the later stages are at least challenging (maybe not late Havoc, but still fairly hard) after 13.

[ccexplore]

So if that's the backroute, what would the intended solution be?

OK, here's the link which has a picture as well as a solution.

http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/solutions/amiga/mayhem/25/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/solutions/amiga/mayhem/25/

I think it's a mistake to think that the solutions presented in the Lemmings Encyclopedia is definitive or official in any way.  One must also remembers that sometimes a level is meant to have multiple solutions, or at least not intended to restrict the player to just one solution.  I think Fernito/Giga's solution is just as valid as the solution in LE.

I did got the "Lemmings Official solution Compendium" book from Mr. Kiwi, so I guess later today, I could check and see what solution that book has for this level.

Lemmings:  The Official Companion presents Fernito/Giga's solution (block on the left, build to seal gap on the right, climber over wall to build path to exit, dig to release crowd) for both Tricky 13 and Mayhem 25.  Moreover, on Tricky 13, after presenting the solution, they say:

This is certainly not the only way to win this level! There are quite a few other solutions! [...]

Therefore, I wouldn't call Fernito/Giga's solution a backroute, and I would say that they did not intend the level to have only one solution.

[Clam]

...you're from NZ too, Clam?

Sure am http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/agree.gif" alt=":agree:" title="I Agree!" class="smiley" /> with most of Insane Steve's list, but there are a few I'd like to add:

Crazy 17 - For the time limit alone, this level is at least one rating too soon.
Wild 13 - Same here, and difficult other reasons too. Should be Havoc.
Wicked 2 - At least wait until later in Wicked before you go and break the game. Preferably Wicked 20.
Wicked 6 -  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" /> It's easier than Wild 1. What is it doing 25 levels after?
Wicked 11 - You briefly touched on this one. I think it's worthy of Havoc rating.

Havoc 13: ...

Did you mean to write something in here? I mean, "..." sums it up fairly well, but...

[Proxima]

How does Wicked 2 "break the game"? It's easier than the first level!

[namida]

Wicked 2 "breaks the game" by introducing a new mechanic completely unique to that level and unexpected: forced fast-forward.

[LemSteven]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Tricky 1.  That level should have been placed around Fun 9 in my opinion.