Which levels can be beaten without assigning multiple skills to one lemming?

Started by namida, August 09, 2009, 05:19:46 AM

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ccexplore

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=131.msg2856#msg2856">Quote from: ccexplore on 2009-08-09 19:07:22
20 is confirmed possible, because there's a way for you to go underneath the one way wall instead of over it.  I've attaced the Lemmix replay and will try to create some sort of video for it later.

Video is too much of a pain to do, so instead I decided to do text + screenshots from Lemmix.  See attached.

ccexplore

I've gone through the remaining Tricky levels not already mentioned in the thread, and have confirmed that all but Tricky 25 ("Cascade") are possible.  This means Tricky 14, 26, 27 and 30.

I've attached replays for 14, 27 and 30 (for 26, just use http://tle.vaarties.nl/quicksolution/lemmings/amiga/tricky/26/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">the solution shown in the Lemmings Encyclopedia).  The only one that took some slight effort to figure out is Tricky 30, due to the time limit.  27 is another instance where you go under the one-way-walls instead of over it.

When I have time later in the day, I'll try to update the zip files with screenshots etc. for those who couldn't use Lemmix.

Proxima

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that all levels involving making a long bridge that require 100% or nearly 100% are impossible -- that eliminates most of the early Taxings. The reason is that you need a new lemming to build each stage of the bridge, but once the first builder is finished there is nothing you can do to save him.

ccexplore

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=131.msg2894#msg2894">Quote from: ccexplore on 2009-08-10 07:26:34
When I have time later in the day, I'll try to update the zip files with screenshots etc. for those who couldn't use Lemmix.

Here're my text/pic solutions for Tricky 14, 27 and 30, with supporting screenshots whenever needed.

ccexplore

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=131.msg2848#msg2848">Quote from: Dullstar on 2009-08-09 13:03:31
How are you supposed to do this without lemmix?

Okay, I've come up with hacked versions of vgalemmi.exe (hacked versions renamed to vgalX.exe) for DOS Lemmings and ONML, that will enforce the no-more-than-1-skill-per-lemming rule.  See attached zip file.  With the modification, whenever you try to assign any skills to a lemming that has previously already been assigned a skill to, nothing will happen.

I'll hack the xmas ones later.

namida

If there's more than one in the same spot, and one of them has been assigned a skill, will nothing happen, or will it choose the next one?

By the way, so far for Taxing, I've managed to do 2 and 6. Replay attached for 2, I don't think it's nessecary for 6.

EDIT: and 9. Replay attached.

2 is nothing special (apart from a few tricks to seperate out a few worker lemmings), 6 is just the standard solution except with getting another lemming to be the bomber to free the blocker, 9 uses one move that could be considered borderline glitchy but is otherwise just clever use of skills.

17, 18, 19 and 20 are also all doable. 17 and 18 are a bit tricky but nothing special, 19 is obvious, 20 is pretty much just the minimum skills solution but with a blocker at the start.

Edit again: 22. You need a few clever tricks to turn the lemmings around (dig, and  have another lemming build from the far  side of the dig pits), otherwise, it's the normal solution. I *suspect* 23 can be done, but I can't be bothered trying, I hate that one. 24, 25, 27 and 30 are obvious.

EDIT AGAIN: I bothered trying 23. It's possible - JUST. One less builder given, or one more lemming required, and it wouldn't be. Replay attached.
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Proxima

If we're doing Taxing as a whole, we ought to maintain a separate list of which levels are definitely impossible so we know which remain to be checked.

The rule of thumb I gave above, if I'm right about it, eliminates 1, 3, 7, 8. Level 10 is impossible for the same reason as its clone, 6 Tricky. My rule eliminates 11, 12, 14, 16, 21, 26. Level 13 is impossible because you need a climber to do other skills (no way under the one-way wall this time!) Same goes for 29. Level 28 is impossible because of the splat fall at the start.

That leaves only Levels 4, 5 and 23 in doubt. I suspect Level 4 is possible. Might Level 5 be possible by a "low route" without too many builders, since the save percentage is fairly generous?

ccexplore

If there's more than one in the same spot, and one of them has been assigned a skill, will nothing happen, or will it choose the next one?

Nothing will happen.  This is by design--we don't want to create a situation where it's possible to assign skills to a lemming in the hacked game but never possible in the real game.  The new "already assigned" check is done at the latest point, after all other existing checks have already been performed, including those checks that end up deciding whether to select an alternate lemming.

namida

I've just confirmed 23 to be possible. See my last post for a replay.
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

ccexplore

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=131.msg3014#msg3014">Quote from: Proxima on 2009-08-12 06:22:01
My rule eliminates 11, 12, 14, 16, 21, 26.

Taxing 21 is actually possible in DOS Lemmings, due to some glitches that lets you remove enough steel to basically bypass the left flamethrower.  I've attached the Lemmix replay and will try to do text/screenshots later. 

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=131.msg3014#msg3014">Quote from: Proxima on 2009-08-12 06:22:01
I suspect Level 4 is possible.

Looks like it.  The way I would go about it would be to use bombers to create explosion pits on each side, and then bash from pit on one side to the other to bring both sets of lemmings together.  Then just build to the exit.

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=131.msg3014#msg3014">Quote from: Proxima on 2009-08-12 06:22:01
Might Level 5 be possible by a "low route" without too many builders, since the save percentage is fairly generous?
I would not go for the low route, since you'd need to repeatedly bash/build on those bars at the low route.  I think you'd end up using more skills and therefore sacrifice more lemmings.  For the high route, first seal up the gap (as if you were going for the low route) before building the bridges going up, that should minimize loss of lemmings at that point.

namida

I see no reason why 4 would be impossible. Added to the list.
I'd like to hear a confirmation of 5 actually being acheived first, though. (While I'm far from the best player here, so it's probably improvable, the best I can acheive is 45%)
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

ccexplore

Here's a surprise addition to the list:  Taxing 16 ("Mary Poppin's Land")

This is based on my 1-minute solution that involves using 17 builders to get close enough to the slope to fall safely, and then bomb the upcoming steep drop to make it into 2 barely survivable drops.  The steel can be bombed if you are at least 2 pixels horizontally away from the rightmost column of pixels of steel block terrain (normally you fall at the adjacent column, 1 pixel horizontally away).

Of course, not being able to use floaters at all add some complications, such as the correct order to do the bombings.  A blocker is also involved to temporarily hold back the crowd while the bombing is under way.  And because you need one builder to allow the bombers to be at the right distance away from the drop to bomb it, you also need to work out how to save that builder without making him a floater.

Replay attached, and I also included a screenshot to give you an overall picture of the solution.  I can provide more details later for people who don't use Lemmix.  But you really need to see it to believe it, and unfortunately it's too hairy to do on DOS Lemmings without a replay feature (so sorry, I'm not going to try a video in DOSBox).

namida

Mayhem: I've managed 2, 4, 9 and (obviously 11). 24 is obviously possible, and 26 has been solved with only bombers meaning it too must be possible.

The only other ones I suspect may be possible, but can't manage myself, are 3 and 16. 3, I'm lost on but I just have a feeling it can be done, 16, my record is 86%.
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Minim

I worked through all the Tame levels and found them all to be solvable.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

ccexplore

I'd like to hear a confirmation of 5 actually being acheived first, though. (While I'm far from the best player here, so it's probably improvable, the best I can acheive is 45%)

Confirmed.  It's yet another "controlled release of worker lemmings" level, with the additional strategy refinement of:

Quote from: Spoiler
holding the crowd in a digger's pit, releasing worker lemmings not from the crowd but rather from the steady stream of newly entered lemmings.

And it turns out Proxima's suggestion of going the lower route works out very well. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> The advantages:
  1) You likely end up using less builders, which is an important ingredient with the controlled release technique.
  2) You don't lose that much lemmings going through the bars at the lower route.  When you build to span the gaps between the bars, the builder will automatically turn around after one brick, so only the bashers are sacrificed.  And you can get through 2 bars with one basher, so you don't lose that many.
  3) It takes less total time to complete the route, which is desirable given the main source of worker lemmings in my solution (see spoiler for details).

I'll post more details later for non-Lemmix users, but for now, here's the Lemmix replay and a screenshot.