Lemmings Plus DOS Project (third and final demo now available!)

[ccexplore]

Here's another 16-skill solution for "Bullet Lemming", still saving only 98%, but in under 3 minutes (ie. more than 1 minute left on the clock when the last lemming exits).

[edit:  apparently the style was set to "DOS Original Lemmings" when I recorded the replay, so use that for playback]

[namida]

Pretty neat. So the glitch record is 16, while the non-glitch record still stands at 17 (and probably isn't going to be possible to improve).

Hm... I wonder if I should get rid of the last builder and change it to a PSYCHO level?

EDIT: And on the subject of difficulty rank changes... anyone else feel "Die The Death Of The Damned" is just a tad too hard for Medi now and would be better off in Danger (or possibly even early PSYCHO, but I think that might be a bit too far).

EDIT again: I've decided to indeed move Bullet Lemming to late Psycho, and Die The Death Of The Damned to late Danger.

[ccexplore]

Anyway, in other news, I think I've finally eliminated EVERY non-glitch backroute in "The Framework". Here's the hopefully final version of the level.

Sorry I haven't got back to this earlier.  Unfortunately, your current version has a rather glaring backroute that somehow I didn't report in earlier versions (I didn't keep the earlier versions, so I don't know/remember what changed to enable this).  Whether you call it "glitch" or not, it's too easy a backroute, you can't possibly leave it in.

Attached replay recorded with CustLemm mechanics.

[namida]

Not a glitch at all. But very easily fixed, simply required moving the staircase one pixel higher.

All old downloads (except the official demo) have been removed.

[ccexplore]

If you look at my replay, notice all those extra skills left, which can be used to make the backroute work even after you move the staircase up.  (attached, "backroute 1")

I also reviewed my earlier backroute involving exploding the ceiling for the lower entrance and then build out from the hole.  It turns out I didn't picked a good place to explode in my earlier backroute.  As you can see in attached "backroute 2", the better place to make the hole is just left of the steel block, because then you can use the left edge of the steel block as an extra "step" to help you go up.

And yes, I also tried a variation where I moved the rope trap so its trigger area is not on the stairs.  But the trigger area isn't wide enough to fully affect the area between the steel and the staircase, so it's still possible to use a builder to build over the steel and trigger area but still before the staircase, explode there, and then use the remaining 1 builder to build out (a bit more tricky since it's "luck" whether the lemming you select "blind" from the crowd builds the correct direction, but possible).  I think you can kill this for good if you widen the steel so that it, together with the rope trap's trigger area, prevents you from blowing a hole until you're up the stairs, where you become too high to break through the platform.

[namida]

The rope trap being on the stairs is in order to kill a different backroute that I found myself, so moving it isn't an option...

I'm really starting to get fed up with this level. >_> I'll fix it another time. On top of your two, I also just found another (albeit minor) one myself. >_> My new one, and your first one, will have to wait... but your second one is easy enough to fix for once and for all with no terrain changes: Remove the floater.

...or maybe not, I just thought of a way you could get it working without the floater. But the floater can go anyway, because with how badly this level's been plagued with backroutes, it's bound to cause one sooner or later anyway, and it's not essential to the intended solution, just helpful.

In the meantime, I have now made this pack's obligatory extremely annoying bomber-timing level! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

[namida]

Also, note to self: Stop making levels that use faller (or floater) bombers. xD

However... how well do you think this level serves as an introduction to the idea? (It'd be the first level in LPDOS that uses the trick, and with a bit of experimentation the player should realise that's the best way to beat this one)

All old downloads (except the official demo) have been removed.

[Clam]

I presume this level is meant to use the "ABCBA" entrance order? Because it doesn't appear to be possible with the broken Custlemm order. You might want to put a fourth trapdoor over the second one just to be sure.

[namida]

Yeah, that's a good idea. And yes, it is. All of these levels are meant to use the Original DOS mechanics.

[Clam]

As for whether it's a good introduction to the concept, I think "What Did You Expect?" would serve this purpose better, since it's obvious that this is what you have to do. In "Shooting Star", it's not immediately apparent that you have to do this.

Another thing - the second bomber can land on the little sloping ledge at the bottom of the wall, and then explode and still release the trapped lemmings. I don't know whether you wanted this to happen, or even if you know about it, but you should be aware of it.

[namida]

I'm well aware of it, and it doesn't make much difference IMO. The first one still needs to be faller-bombed, and doing so is the more obvious way to do the second one.

As for "What Did You Expect?", I think the fact that it requires three perfectly placed fall-bombers as well as having a tight time limit makes it a bit too hard for an introduction level. Besides, its easier version (which only requires 25%, gives you 50 bombers instead of 3, and you can block them) is in the same difficulty rank (Medi) as Shooting Star, which I thought was a good point to introduce the trick.

[ccexplore]

I'm really starting to get fed up with this level. >_>

I'll give you credit for hiding whatever the intended solution is so well, I don't think I'll be able to tell whether it's intended or not even when I do manage to find it. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

Here's a solution that at least doesn't look so backroutish, though it's clearly not your intended solution since it still saves 98%.  It is my best attempt so far at actually trying to figure out what your intended solution might be.

I've noticed how the area left of the upper entrance seems like something an intended solution might use, but so far I've failed to find any reasons to trouble myself with that part of the level.  I'm also not seeing any viable way to release the lower entrance crowd on the left (takes up too much skills or too many dead lemmings), and since going through the ceiling at that place is a backroute given your fixes, I'm left only with bashing out the piece of wood at the bottom right.

[namida]

This is the intended solution.

[namida]

In other news, I found a solution to "To The End!" that doesn't use the dig-on-the-same-spot trick (which could be argued to be a glitch), nor does it involve digging a one way wall. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

I don't consider it a backroute because, like with No Salvation and several others, To The End! isn't meant to have any one specific single solution.

[ccexplore]

the dig-on-the-same-spot trick (which could be argued to be a glitch)

Not 100% sure what trick you're referring to, but if it's this:

If you have a 2nd lemming dig at the exact same location as an existing digger, it will free the existing digger (ie. cause him to stop digging).

Then isn't it something that also works in Cheapo?  Unless a behavior is so contrary to common sense and logic, I'd be hard pressed to call it a glitch when it works in both Lemmings and Cheapo.  The described behavior in particular is so logical, it would be more of a glitch to me if it doesn't work.

And as tempted as I am to just look at the replay for the intended solution to "The Framework", I think I'd rather get some hints instead before I really give up.  I guess the questions I have so far is (you can put your answers in spoiler tags if you want):

1) when you release the crowd from the lower entrance, which way (or perhaps "ways?") do they exit their holding area?  (left/right/above/below)

2) are the staircases left of the upper entrance involved in the intended solution, or just a red herring?

3) in all my solutions so far, the path to the exit ends with the miner's slope, bridge over the gap, and bashing through the pillar left of the exit.  Is at least that portion part of the intended solution as well?