Lemmings Plus DOS Project (third and final demo now available!)

[namida]

Hm... that's not the hugest issue though. A hack to simply make it play normal music on these levels would be sufficient.

However, one thing I do want to ask you, since you're the expert on mechanics: If you know the trick I'm talking about, do you know if it's possible to make the Oblivion trick work in DOS/Lemmix?

(Basically, it requires being able to create a repeated pattern where lemmings that block inside it will be able to turn around lemmings coming from the left, but no matter where on it they block, lemmings coming from the right will not be blocked)

Even better if it can be done in the Brick style, as that's the one the original Oblivion level uses.

[namida]

Another pair to compare! Return of the T!

In both cases, save 25 of 25, Release Rate 1, skills: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 0 bombers, 0 blockers, 3 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger.
However, the time limit is different between versions, as the DOS version is possible to solve much quicker. The limit is 4 minutes in the original Cheapo version, and 3 minutes in the DOS version.

As with "To The End", the one way walls ARE still one-way in Cheapo, they just don't show up as such on the screenshot.

Now I just have to do "Lemmerixo", then I can release a teaser pack featuring each of the ultimate levels. Then I can work on converting the entire set, where possible...

The main difficulty with that being, unlike RotT and TTE, which rely on multitasking and clever use of skills, Lemmerixo is based on a lot of well-placed and pre-measured manouvers, which is a lot harder to do in LemEdit than in Cheapo (where you have sketches).

[namida]

Another thing I've thought about is a level to take the place of "Number _ Sturges Road" and "Lane of Lament" (which were basically the LP1 and LP3 equivalents of "We All Fall Down", a level that appears in every difficult setting getting harder each time). I've attached a pic of the level I've decided to use. Basically, I went for one that rather than being a matter of simply having more and more lemmings each time (like We All Fall Down does), it instead simply pushes you to find better and better solutions to the same problem (like Lane of Lament does, kind of). However, unlike Lane of Lament, it also doesn't use an entirely new approach each time, instead, you just have to find a more effective solution. You can use the hardest one's solution on any of them, but there are much easier ways to go about the earlier ones.

The skillset and requirements (listed in order from lowest to highest difficulty):

Lemmings: 40, 30, 20, 10
Save: 20 (50%), 18 (60%), 14 (70%), 9 (90%)
Skills: 8 of all, 6 of all, 4 of all, 2 of all
RR: 99 in all
Time Limit: 4mins, 3mins, 2mins, 1min

For those who are interested, only the very hardest one is impossible to save 100% on.

Since you can't tell just by looking: The trap fires to the left, not to the right. It gets the lemming as soon as they step up onto 2nd from top stair.

And just for the record: One set of stairs is actually designed to be possible to climb from both sides without any terrain destruction. The other two where this is relevant are intentionally impossible to do so on.

[ccexplore]

A hack to simply make it play normal music on these levels would be sufficient.

That would be much easier.  Actually, if we based it on ONML (which has no special graphics music), it would be equivalent to hacking it to support more than 100 levels, which I think should be relatively easy.

However, one thing I do want to ask you, since you're the expert on mechanics: If you know the trick I'm talking about, do you know if it's possible to make the Oblivion trick work in DOS/Lemmix?

I think I've come up with a setup that will work.  Unfortunately, the only graphics set I've found suitable for creating it is the Pink Style. And actually, even without worrying about the mechanics, the Brick style in DOS ONML turns out to lack the vertical version of the staircase that your Cheapo level uses, so it wouldn't have been possible anyway I think to even replicate just the graphics.  Another possibility is to make this a special graphics level--create the non-staircase terrain in LemEdit/Lemmix, take a screenshot, and then edit the screenshot in Paint to put in the staircases.  I can then use various programs to turn the screenshot into a VGASPEC.

Attached are two test levels.  OBL1.lvl illustrates the general setup, but it is fairly inefficient in terms of terrain usage:  each staircase takes 15 terrain pieces.  Because blockers cannot overlap in DOS Lemmings, the total amount of horizontal space taken up by the 18 blockers would require 28-30 staircases to cover, which exceeds the limit of 399 terrain pieces in DOS Lemmings.  OBL2.lvl is a second setup that is more efficient in terms of terrain piece usage.  The test level uses up 308 terrain pieces, leaving you with 91 to construct the rest of the level, which hopefully should be more than enough.

Great care must be taken in how the staircases are positioned.  Note that in both test levels, the leftmost staircase, its upper-leftmost pixel is at (300, 60).  Notice that both coordinates are multiples of 4.  You may move the terrain around, but you must take care to keep the position of that pixel at multiples of 4 for both x and y, and you should keep the spacing/relative positioning of everything else (all the other staircases, plus the ground level) exactly as given.

Because of the huge number of terrain pieces involved, if you're not going the VGASPEC route, it is highly recommended that you use Lemmix to create/edit this level, since Lemmix gives you the means to move the entire terrain setup as one unit rather than 308 separate terrain pieces.

Based on my understanding of the game mechanics, the setup should work as desired.  A blocker standing on a terrain pixel whose y is a multiple of 4, his "blocker field" will only extend downward to 4 pixels (including the one he' standing on).  So the step height of 4 pixels is just enough to cause the lemming below the step to not be affected by the blocker.  The horizontal multiple-of-4 alignment ensures that the various boundaries of the blocker field all line up with the steps to achieve the desired effect.  Anyway, if you do find some serious problems with the given setup, let me know and I'll try to find a way around it.  (This is where Lemmix again can be helpful, since you can just provide a replay to illustrate the problem instead of having to explain it in words.)

[ccexplore]

However, one thing I do want to ask you, since you're the expert on mechanics: If you know the trick I'm talking about, do you know if it's possible to make the Oblivion trick work in DOS/Lemmix?

I think I've come up with a setup that will work.  Unfortunately, the only graphics set I've found suitable for creating it is the Pink Style.

I spoke too soon.  It is possible to create the setup using the Brick Style also, even making the staircases white, but it's less efficient.  28 staircases took 355 terrain pieces to make, leaving you only 44 for the rest of the level, though that might well be enough, given the relative simplicity of the level.

If the staircases don't need to be white, I think by using the longest terrain piece (red brick wall) as the "body" for them, the staircases can be done using the same amount as in the Pink Style (a little more than 300 pieces for 30 staircases).  It might also be okay to use 7-step staircases rather than the 8 I have in my setup, which should reduce the amount of terrain pieces by about 40.

[Note: if you open the attach level in Lemmix, use the Brick Style from "Custom Lemmings" rather than ONML.  It's just a matter of numbering (Brick is Style 5 in Custom Lemmings but 0 in ONML, and the attached level file uses number 5).]

[namida]

NICE.

I've developed a full-blown Oblivion remake out of it, which works very well. Thanks heaps for that.


I've also come up with a list of the levels that, mechanics and graphics permitting, I really want to include in the port. Some are because they're good levels, some are just really fun or use a clever trick. Those levels are:

*EDIT: Moved this list into the first post.*

I guess once those are done, I'll look at what other levels can be added in to fill the remaining space.

[Dullstar]

You know, for whatever reason I now feel like making a lemmings fangame...  It'll be seperate from the Epic Lemmings Fangame, though, but we could include levels from my, uh, personal fangame in the Epic Fangame.

Can any really awesome levels be included in the [epic] fangame, by the way?  After all, Epic Lemmings Fangame is planned so that the levels will not be made by any one person, but instead anyone who is willing to contribute.

[Proxima]

What is this Epic Fangame you mention and could some of my Cheapo levels also be included in it?

[Dullstar]

Hmmm...  I guess it's been ignored for some time now, hasn't it?  Maybe I should bump it.

[namida]

Proxima, I finally managed to acheive the 100% on Lemmerixo that you mentioned, and it feels more like a backroute than anything else to me. It cuts out an entire part of the level that was intended to be vital to the solution. Most likely, the remake would remove this route rather than require it.

[Proxima]

Well, what was your 100% solution? It might not be the same as mine.

Here's mine:

First lemming digs on the edge of the first platform. Make a blocker behind him. After a while, digger builds one brick then resumes digging (so fall is survivable). Build across gap when digger is low enough to not hit head. Climb up, immediately dig, mine when level with top of bridge. Build across next gap, bash pillar, build to reach highest steel block. Build so that tip of first brick just touches wall; after two bricks, mine. Build over next gap; while building, mine to release blocker and crowd. Leader of crowd climbs, digs before exit, builds to turn round, mines down to bring crowd up. Should be plenty of time for both climbers to exit (I had 2mins to spare).

[namida]

It's mostly similar.

However, I didn't climb, dig, mine, I just mined straight from the bridges (and dug at the edges if nessecary). I also didn't stop mid-dig near the start, I simply after solving the level, I had the lemming come back, dig after climbing up there, then bash to free the blocker (I got through the middle pillar with a miner).

[namida]

After some more thinking, I decided that it would be a lot simpler to move Lemmerixo down a difficulty level (or simply to an early place in the final difficulty level) and require 100%... partially because I can't even remember most of the original solution, partially because I do remember it being very hard to pull off and I'd rather focus on levels being hard to work out.

So, here's the images. The only difference in stats is that you're now required to save 100% (50 lemmings) instead of 98% (49 lemmings), for those of you who know the original. For those who don't:

Lemmings: 50
Save: 100% (50 lemmings) - original version required 98% (49 lemmings)
Time: 8 minutes
Release Rate: 1
Skills: 3 climbers, 0 floaters, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 12 builders, 1 basher, 4 miners, 5 diggers

Unlike the others, you don't have to imagine any one-way walls, as this level is completely one-way-wall-free.

[namida]

And with that done, here's a preview!

It contains the ultimate level of each Lemmings Plus (so, Return of the T, Lemmerixo, and To The End!), plus Oblivion, and the hardest version previously mentioned new level "No Salvation".

99% of the credit for remaking "Oblivion" goes to ccexplore, not me.

All old downloads (except the official demo) have been removed.

[namida]

I've just also done The Long Road To Lemming High (sadly, due to DOS limitations, the top half is very different from the Cheapo version, but the bottom part - which is where the main trick takes place - remains the same, the top was all filler so I just replaced it with new filler) and The Buildo Station (which is more or less the same as before).