Least amount of time needed to beat levels

[namida]

Done in 0:36.

[Clam]

...Wild 9? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Thanks for not rubbing it in. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

So here it is again. I pretty much gave up on this back when it started, and I pretty much killed it off by posting my disapproval. (Terrible habit of mine, I'm afraid. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />) But now I think it's time to reconsider.

Lately I've been checking out some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool-assisted_speedrun" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Tool-Assisted Speedruns (check out Sonic 1 & 2 on Youtube - they're awesome), and I happened upon http://www.viddler.com/explore/adelikat/videos/403/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">this video of a SNES Lemmings run. Now, I'm not suggesting that we do a speedrun on an emulator aiming for the quickest time in terms of real time (as they do here) - that would be a huge amount of work - but the original aim of this thread isn't all that different.

I'm willing to give this another try. Who's interested in helping out?

[Clam]

@Dullstar: Are you still OK to maintain the list, or should I start a new thread and keep the list myself?

This challenge should be much more accessible now that we have a proper speedrunning tool available. We're in full control of the game - it's all about strategy, and execution of that strategy is all but trivial. If anyone needs help, I might be able to write up some sort of guide (with things like release rates, how to figure out the number of lemmings needed when the nuke glitch is used, etc).


Since the situation has changed here, I should clarify the timing conventions for DOS at this point:

• Pausing for time is assumed to be used in all cases, to maximum effect (just over 2 seconds).
• Nuke glitch is allowed, and in many cases will lead to a vast improvement in speed.
• The time taken is the time limit for the level minus the time left on the clock on the first frame in which the percentage requirement is met. You can determine this by frame advancing as the lemming exits.

[Clam]

Now it's time to kick off this challenge again. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

Here's Mayhem 12 in 10 seconds.

[Dullstar]

I think it should be required %, to be consistent with the least skills thread.

From the 1-minute thread, my score for Fun 16 is 7:04. And I'm sure you could shave a few seconds off that with a few hours work http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />
(edit: 0:56 in "time used" format)

I'd post your result in this case, but I don't know what version this is.  Lemmix or DOS?  Or something else?  If you remember, can you let me know?

[Clam]

Lemmix and DOS are equivalent now, since http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=271.msg7422#msg7422" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">ccexplore fixed the LemmixPlayer to reproduce bugs like nuke glitch, pausing for time, steel digging etc. By the way, you'll need to download this version to view my latest replay http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[Dullstar]

I thought the clock is faster in Lemmix, which would cause the results to be a larger number than they should be.  Did ccexplore fix that as well?

Well, the clock being faster is just what I heard, anyways.

[Clam]

I don't recall the clock being too fast in Lemmix at any point. That must have been a different version (Amiga perhaps?)

Anyway, since Lemmix emulates DOS properly now (or near enough), you can merge the two into a single list. When you watch a replay in the new LemmixPlayer, make sure the "pausing for time mode" is on (press "z" to toggle this).

[Dullstar]

Hmm, we could record how long 5 seconds is in Lemmix and then in DOS and compare the difference...
However, they're staying as separate lists until someone proves that the clock in Lemmix is the same as in DOS.

[Clam]

Okay, I know. Take a level that takes a long time to complete but has a really simple solution. Like Tricky 2. I just played this level in DOSBox, LemmixPlayer (with pause for time mode off), and the editor playtest, without changing the release rate. In each case, there was 15 seconds left at the end, i.e. it took 2:45 to complete. Over this length of time, if the number of frames per second was different by just 1, it would change the time taken by nearly 10 seconds. Go ahead and try it yourself (I recommend digging the last lemming only, otherwise it will get quite tiresome. The last one is the only one that matters anyway with regards to time taken.)

[Dullstar]

I'll get to merging those a little later.  Although, if you do it, it'll get done sooner.  Either way, it'll get done.

[ccexplore]

However, they're staying as separate lists until someone proves that the clock in Lemmix is the same as in DOS.

One of the things I did when helping Erik with the game mechanics is measuring the time limit.  I created a test level consisting solely of 1 lemming falling out of the trapdoor and walking to the exit, with a 1 minute time limit, no pause trick.  I keep moving the exit away by 8 pixels until the lemming couldn't reach it anymore (ie. game says I saved 0% after time runs out), then move it back to the last position it is reachable.  I then move the trapdoor up by 3 pixels each time (3 because that's how many pixels a lemming falls in one frame) until again the exit becomes unreachable in time.

It's testing like this that led me to discover the slight difference between original DOS Lemmings and ONML in the position where lemmings started to enter (entrance.x + 24 in Lemmings, entrance.x + 25 in ONML).  So I'm fairly confident that Lemmix should match DOS exactly in terms of time, but I'll double-check again later tonight to be sure.

I've also been going through more of the game's code in the past day or so, and I think I finally have the correct number of frames gained by the pause trick as well.  I'll test out and make the changes in Lemmix later today or tomorrow.

================

One thing I should note is that the amount of real time per frame in Lemmix may or may not match DOS exactly.  However, in terms of game time (ie. how many frames before the game clock goes down 1 second, etc.), Lemmix should already be matching DOS Lemmings, and my understanding is that we're measuring time in terms of game time here.

[Clam]

I've also been going through more of the game's code in the past day or so, and I think I finally have the correct number of frames gained by the pause trick as well.  I'll test out and make the changes in Lemmix later today or tomorrow.

Is it more or less than what it gives you now? Come on, don't leave me hanging... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />


Here are my provisional results for the first 10 levels of Fun:

1. 0:15
2. 0:17
3. 0:18
4. 0:34
5. 0:33
6. 0:21
7. 0:43*
8. 0:05
9. 0:29
10. 0:08

* Still a work in progress. If cc gives us one more frame on the pause trick, I'll have this down to 42 for sure. Otherwise, maybe.

I'll post replays after I check the timing on the new version.

[ccexplore]

I've also been going through more of the game's code in the past day or so, and I think I finally have the correct number of frames gained by the pause trick as well.  I'll test out and make the changes in Lemmix later today or tomorrow.

Is it more or less than what it gives you now? Come on, don't leave me hanging... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

Unfortunately it's less I think.  Basically, due to a quirk in the game's programming, you cannot pause during the first 2 frames. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

As part of the latest round of looking at the game's code, I'm also going to review the order in which Lemmix handles certain things compare with DOS Lemmings, to make sure there aren't any differences that can affect anything.  I don't think there'll be any, but as you said, it's worth it to get it right.