What levels could be beaten in under one minute?

[Clam]

Oh good, I won't have to do "Triple Trouble" again. That was a nightmare to execute http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />. The only other 3-trapdoor level in Original Lemmings (Tricky 29) is impossible due to walking distance anyway. I've checked Havoc 12, the only 3-trapdoor level in ONML, and it still works.


It's funny you should mention this bug, because I've recently found another one that is going to come into play very shortly. In Blitz 3, "Check Your Hints!", the first two exits work in Lemmix but not in DOS. They have index numbers 15 and 16 - which is interesting, because I thought #15 was supposed to work in DOS http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />. Anyway, after a bit of testing I've found that object #17 (if it is a trap or exit) also triggers in Lemmix, but from #18 onwards they work (or don't work http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />) as they should.


The end result of all this is that Blitz 3 is solvable in one minute in Lemmix, using the first or second exit, but not in DOS where only the 7th exit works.

[ccexplore]

It's funny you should mention this bug, because I've recently found another one that is going to come into play very shortly. In Blitz 3, "Check Your Hints!", the first two exits work in Lemmix but not in DOS. They have index numbers 15 and 16 - which is interesting, because I thought #15 was supposed to work in DOS http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />. Anyway, after a bit of testing I've found that object #17 (if it is a trap or exit) also triggers in Lemmix, but from #18 onwards they work (or don't work http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />) as they should.

I tested things out a little more and this looks like a bug in Lemmix's level-loading programming.  I found that if I extract the Blitz3 level from the original levelpak in Lemmix, save it as an LVL, and then do a "replace level" in Lemmix to put this LVL back into the levelpak, this actually changes the level so that when you play it in DOSBox, the leftmost exit works!

I'll have to do more testing to see what exactly Lemmix did wrong with level loading.  The most likely way this error occurs is if Lemmix shifted all the object indices down by 1, so that what you see as exit object #15 in Lemmix should really have been #16.  But I'd think most levels use object index #0, so what happens to that index?  Another possibility is that maybe this level did not use object index #0, and that somehow causes the shift in object indices in Lemmix.

[Clam]

And here's another thing: The third exit is object #17, and it doesn't work. But when I tested a level in Original Lemmings and Custom Lemmings modes, object #17 worked. Lemmix seems to handle this differently depending on the viewer mode, much like it does with multiple entrances. (For what it's worth, ONML mode has object #17 as a fake.)

Maybe it would be a good idea to open up the level in Lemedit and check the index numbers on the objects. It's quite possible that this level skipped an object index, as you suggest, to produce fake objects. I'm not very familiar with LemEdit (I used it briefly before switching to Lemmix), but apparently this let you create fake objects in this way, whereas Lemmix doesn't.

[ccexplore]

Here's my best effort for Frost 15.  I haven't actually verified this in the actual DOS game, but I can offer strong evidence that it should work with the pause trick.

Attached is the Lemmix replay and 2 test levels.  Frost15_lemmix_fixed.lvl has the fix for the entrance ordering, and is the level you should use for the replay in Lemmix.  You'll note that I had the RR at 99 for all except one time, where I briefly drop it to 71 before resuming RR 99 afterwards.

The level F15TEST.LVL is a modified version of the level, design to help show that the last lemming will exit in time if you apply the pause glitch in the DOS game:

1) the time limit is set to 1 minute
2) all the obstacles you'd need to bash through have been removed.
3) terrain have been added to replicate the builder's bridge at the end.

The only thing I didn't bother accounting for terrain-wise is the basher I used to delay the crowd from the trailblazer (before the final bashing and building), which you can easily do yourself when testing the F15TEST level.  My goal for that level is to replicate closely the same path the last lemming out will take to get to the exit.

Replacing the original level (in level001.dat) with F15TEST.LVL, I've tested the level in DOS with the pause trick, and find that using the same RR changes (99-71-99), and doing the basher I didn't account for in the terrain, the last lemming will make the exit in time.  (In fact, I got it to work even with the RR 71 replaced by RR 69.)  Therefore it's likely that my Lemmix solution will work in DOS within 1 minute, using the pause trick.

DOSBox now supports video capture, so maybe further into the future, I can settle this for real that way.

[ccexplore]

I gave the DOSBox video recording thing a try.  My best effort so far for Frost 15 is here:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Frost15_DOSBox_almost.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Frost15_DOSBox_almost.zip [edit: file removed and replaced with a successful attempt: http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Frost15_1min_DOS.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Frost15_1min_DOS.zip]

(You'll need to install the video codec that comes with DOSBox to play the video.  Also, because of the way DOSBox video recording works, you get 2 files, one during the game, and one for the %-saved screen after the game.)

Unfortunately the video is much choppier than I expected, so I understand it's not entirely convincing from the video that the last lemming makes it out in time, but it does.  The video has almost every part of my solution done correctly, except the builder (I built one pixel too early, causing the lost of 1 more lemming).

Until I figure out how to get the video recording not to be so choppy, I'm not going to make another attempt at this for now.  My efforts did leave no doubt to me that Frost 15 is definitely possible in DOS with a 1-minute time limit, if you use the pause trick.

[Clam]

The video doesn't look choppy at all for me. I'd say that video is enough proof that it can be done. A couple of things I'd like to point out:

 - You can use a release rate of 87 instead of 71, and it will still work. Anything higher will lose lemmings to the left.
- There is a better way to use the 2nd and 3rd bashers. You can create a bigger gap for the builder so that you don't need to time it perfectly.
- Falling time matters. Time spent falling is time spent not moving towards the exit. If you can flatten out the terrain to avoid falling (and jumping), you can get the lemmings to the exit a little faster.

I've attached a replay to demonstrate these points (using your fixed version of the level). By my reckoning, this gets the last lemming through the exit 11 frames sooner - 8 from the release rate, 2 from falling time and 1 from jumping (your 3rd basher leaves a 3-pixel rise that the lemmings have to jump up). I know this is a bit nitpicky, considering we already have proof that this is possible, but it could be useful in some cases - like Tame 15 for example.

And by the way, I've also refined my solution to http://camanis.net/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php?cmd=get&file=challenge_replays/taxing27_1min.lrb" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Taxing 27. It now saves 77/80, which equals the current record, and takes only 35 seconds.


@LemSteven: Can you please update the list? There's quite a few levels missing.

[Clam]

I can now say for certain that Tame 15 can be done in one minute in DOS. Like I mentioned in the above post, the key here is to minimise the time wasted in falling and jumping. The attached replay shows that the required 50% can be saved before the clock ticks over to 2:58, i.e. within a minute and two seconds. And, of course, those two seconds can be made up by pausing at the start. It is actually possible to get an extra lemming in by digging away parts of the mountain to flatten it out a little.

[ccexplore]

The video doesn't look choppy at all for me. I'd say that video is enough proof that it can be done. A couple of things I'd like to point out:

Thanks for the tips!  I'm now able to complete a http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Frost15_1min_DOS.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">successful DOSBox video using your modified solution, so Frost 15 is finally fully confirmed.

I actually did try a bunch of higher release rates when experimenting in Lemmix, but I wasn't successful with anything higher than 71.  In hindsight the problem was probably the exact position I started mining/bombing, rather than the RR.

[Clam]

"The Compressed (zipped) Folder is invalid or corrupted"

Never mind, I'm convinced already. I've also confirmed that Frost 7 is possible with pause glitch, replay attached.


Now that we've sorted that out , let's move on to Flurry:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16.

13 is frustrating with its 100% requirement. 6 and 7 aren't strictly too long, but there doesn't seem to be a quick enough way to overcome the obstacles.

[LemSteven]

Okay, I've updated the list with the Holiday Lemmings levels that have been posted so far.  However, I am leaving for a trip on Tuesday, so I'm going to be away from my computer for a week.  Once I'm gone, I won't be able to update the list until I get back. 

[Clam]

Ooh.. I guess this means you're going to miss the next thread. I've got a good idea for what the next one could be. I could start it now to give you a chance to contribute before you go.

We probably won't need to add the Holiday levels to the list urgently. However, I would like to mention the Original and ONML levels we've done more recently that you haven't added to the list:

Fun 29
Mayhem 14, 18, 25
Wild 5

[ccexplore]

Okay, one more. Wild 5. This might be the last one until we start on Havoc, since I can't find any others that could be done this way.

Turns out you missed one:  Wicked 13.  Replay attached.

[Clam]

Well, I was bound to miss one somewhere. Good job http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

I've gotten Taxing 16.  It actually took a little work to fully optimize the solution so that it works in Lemmix (ie. without using the pause trick).

In my replay, at the point where you need to assign builder to a left-facing lemming amidst the crowd of right-facing lemmings, you have to place the cursor at a precise location and you have exactly one frame when the assignment can be made (similar to my lose-1 solution for Tricky 23).  You can probably avoid this by adjusting the RR at the appropriate point, to create a gap in the crowd matching the time/place in which you need to assign builder to the left-facing lemming.  (I didn't do that in my replay, because I didn't originally have the left-facing builder.  Making the RR adjustment would've forced me to revert farther back to an earlier point in the saved solution replay.)

[ccexplore]

I've finished my first pass at the Blitz levels.  Looks to be another short list:

Blitz: 6, 7, 8, 10, 14, 16

Replay for Blitz 8 attached.