Mayhem 3 ("It's Hero Time") on Amiga version

[PIGSgrame]

I've downloaded the "Corrected Lemmings" version from the Lemmings file portal. One of the many things I noticed to be different is that Mayhem3 has 30 Lemmings here where the PC version has only 25.

For the PC version, the solution is not that difficult. Even if you don't dig directly above the exit, the last lemming is able to make it into the exit by the skin of his teeth. But in the Amiga level (which I played in "Corrected Lemmings", though), this level does not seem to be solveable. Even if I dig above the exit so that the lemmings enter it during the fall, I only manage to get 96% (93% if I try to solve the level according to the PC version).

Any hints what I need to do? Or is the Amiga version of this level indeed unsolveable on PC, maybe due to a different timer logic?

[ccexplore]

Any hints what I need to do? Or is the Amiga version of this level indeed unsolveable on PC, maybe due to a different timer logic?

If you think the Amiga version is hard on the PC, wait til you try it out on the Amiga itself.

Basically, the game clock on the PC version is already slower compare to the Amiga's, so any solution that times out on the PC will definitely time out on the Amiga.

I don't know what solution you're trying, but clearly you need to come up with a different solution.  Think about what you could do to shorten the path the crowd takes to get to the exit.  The fastest solution should give you like 2-3 seconds worth of breathing room on the PC.

(Aside:  I'm at work, but I'm gonna have to check tonight at home whether the PC version really only has 25 lemmings.  I could've sworn it's 30 on the PC version too.)

[PIGSgrame]

Thanks for your reply! The only solution I can think of is the one I always use:

• The last Lem is the hero the title implies - he mines after falling down from the entrance
• He bashes through the right-only block and while doing so, becomes an athlete
• When he comes near the acid bowl, he builds
• Now he will climb up the right wall and safely land left to the exit
• All that is left to do is digging down

I can gain one second or two if I dig directly above the exit so that all Lemmings enter the exit while falling down. But I have no idea how to shorten the path of the crowd. All skills that are left are one blocker and one bomber, but since I need all 100%, i cannot position the blocker. I also see no chance to free the blocker in another way, as all skills suitable for this (miner etc.) are needed somewhere else...

(Aside:  I'm at work, but I'm gonna have to check tonight at home whether the PC version really only has 25 lemmings.  I could've sworn it's 30 on the PC version too.)

At least in my PC version, this level has 25 Lemmings, and I've never seen otherwise. The same-looking Fun24 ("Konbanwa Lemming san") has indeed 30.

[ccexplore]

Ok, here's a hint (highlight to read):

pick someone else to be the Hero

[PIGSgrame]

Yea, I got it 8)

My solution always worked on the PC version, so I never tried to optimize it. But now I can make it with 18 secons left on the "corrected" version, although this needs two heros.

Just why did they remove 5 Lemmings from the PC version, making this level a lot easier? Would be intresting to know if there exist PC versions where this level has 30 Lemmings. Strangely enough, they also greatly simplified the next level, "The Crossroads". The Amiga version requires all 100%, the PC version only 80%. What could be the reason for such changes? After all, it's the Mayhem stage...

[ccexplore]

Hmm, I checked and to my surprise, it's indeed 25.

Didn't realize the levels have been changed so many places in the DOS version, I think when I have time, I need to do a full comparison of the levels in the two versions to see what else may have differed.

[DragonsLover]

About the Corrected version of Lemmings: I'm the author of it. I did take all the extracted Amiga levels, did some changes and make the game to be as similar to Amiga version. The only difference is the number of Lemmings which passes from 100 to 80, the number of builders in the level "Triple Trouble" (look under) and a few changes of misplaced one-way arrows.

As for "It's hero time!", the level is fully possible while using the "High Performance PCs" mode. This allow the game to give extra precious seconds for each levels. Didn't you read the Readme.txt included in the zip? Notice that "It's hero time!" is also fully possible using "PC Compatible" mode. In fact, I did try the "Pause the game at start to save few seconds" glitch and it works fine!

As for the differences in skills or stats of levels. I did sort them out.

Levels where there are differences between Dos and Amiga, about the skills and stats, are:

"Livin' On the Edge" (screen start position)
"Come on over to my place"
"Triple Trouble" (this is an exception for the Amiga similarity. Under Amiga, there were 10 builders for this level. Personnally, I consider that as too hard because it requires pixel precision. It IS possible with 10 builders but it's really REALLY annoying. So I did keep 12 builders of the Dos version which is much better. Just modify the level if you disagree)
"Call in the bomb squad" (screen start position)
"It's hero time!" (as said above: 30 lemmings instead of 25 and it's still possible to solve the level)
"The Crossroads" (80 Lemmings instead of less and 100% to save instead of less)
"Last one out is a rotten egg!"
"The Fast Food Kitchen" (2 minutes instead of 3)
"The Steel Mines of Kessel" (10 blockers, bombers and builders instead of 20. The level is still solvable though.)

And as for levels with objects differences (missing objects or misplaced objects): A LOT OF THEM! I did even correct a few misplaced one-way arrows like in "Last one out is a rotten egg!" at the bottom-right of the big block.

Oh, and one last thing: I did write in the txt files that I say thank you to ccexplore to changed the safe-fall distance: this is my mistake, I know you didn't change anything about it. I say thank you anyway just for the music correction.

Enjoy it!

[PIGSgrame]

There are indeed a lot of differences, especially considering the missing objects. In the Amiga levels, many levels have some type of liquid at their bottom, which mostly does not only look better, but even more realistic. For instance, see Tricky5. With water flowing through the arches, this level has a much better 3D effect.

I can't think of a reason why this was removed in the PC levels, since it does not seem to be for performance purposes: I use DOSBOX to emulate a 3MHz PC and the Amiga levels with fluid still work fine. Would be intresting to know the developers' motivation.

Oh, by the way: Can someone please split the last few posts from this thread? It's an intresting discussion, but no longer on topic...

[ccexplore]

There are indeed a lot of differences, especially considering the missing objects.

That's fairly well known to anyone who's played a version of Lemmings besides the PC version.  It's striking, but I find it less surprising than all these changes in things like number of lemmings and percent to save.

I can't think of a reason why this was removed in the PC levels, since it does not seem to be for performance purposes: I use DOSBOX to emulate a 3MHz PC and the Amiga levels with fluid still work fine.

I doubt that DOSBox is accurate enough in its emulation when it comes to timing like this.  Also, the main bottleneck for this game on a slow PC is more likely to be main memory and video memory access and less the CPU itself; I'd be surprised if DOSBox takes such things into account in its timing.

Besides performance, another possible factor might be that they made the PC version work on old graphics cards like the CGA and Tandy, which supports only like 4 colors at once, which might for example make the water in Tricky 5 not look as good.  Though I don't think this would account for much of the removals.

[PIGSgrame]

That's a good point, I forgot about about the fact that there is a CGA version. This explains why the fluids are removed, but it's still intresting why so many other objects are missing...

[DragonsLover]

Maybe because of the 4 different kind of PC mode you can play with. Maybe the differences required to remove some things... Or it is maybe about the memory...

[nobody]

"Triple Trouble" (this is an exception for the Amiga similarity. Under Amiga, there were 10 builders for this level. Personnally, I consider that as too hard because it requires pixel precision. It IS possible with 10 builders but it's really REALLY annoying. So I did keep 12 builders of the Dos version which is much better. Just modify the level if you disagree)

I just tried the level with 10 builders and I didn't think it was too bad, the only annoying part was having to build out of the pit on the right side with only one builder when the lemmings were all bunched together. (It wasn't a problem on the left side because the lemmings all landed on top of each other coming out of the entrance). I'm not sure where you think pixel precision is required, each side only needs one builder to get out of the pit and four more to reach the thing in the middle and from there you just need to use a little resourcefulness to solve it...

[DragonsLover]

On the left part, if you don't build at the right place, the builder don't "close" the gap as he knocks his head on the wall and turns around. Because you don't have much builders to close the gap, each time, you have to nuke the level at this moment. Which is annoying. Then, when you finally get it, lemmings on the right are stuck together which you have a 50% chance to have a Lemmings build to the left (and it doesn't mean the lemmings is building at the correct place). If you miss: nuke.

This is why 12 builders is better. If it would be a Mayhem level, ok, but it's a Taxing one. I mean, this level is harder than the ones in Mayhem.

[nobody]

It only takes three builders for him to hit his head. After he turns around and comes back you only need to build one more step to hit the wall.

[DragonsLover]

Hmmm... yeah. But still there, this level is quite tough.