Immediate turn-offs

[Strato Incendus]

It has nothing to do with direct drop.

Spoiler

Oh-noers are still able to exit. We only recently had a change that made it so that Oh-noers would always drown when falling into water, even if they were Swimmers, because they "need their arms" to oh-no.

[WillLem]

Huh. I would have expected that to be impossible based on the fact that direct drop doesn't work.

Direct drop does work as long as the fall distance is below splat height.

The original direct drop "bug" was caused by the splatter and faller states being exitable; the thinking is that the lemming should be able to transition to walker first before exiting.

EDIT: To be clear, I fundamentally disagree that this is a bug. The lem has made contact with the exit's trigger, so they should exit regardless of fall distance or any other factors.

[Dullstar]

Right, it's because splatters (fallers as well in some versions, but I don't think all ports with direct drop are affected) can exit. A splatter is actively dying, and I would expect an ohnoer to have similar behavior, i.e. not being able to exit.

[namida]

A splatter is actively dying, and I would expect an ohnoer to have similar behavior, i.e. not being able to exit.

I'd think of it like this: Someone who has fallen a long distance and hit the ground is probably already dead. Someone who is sick and about to die can sometimes be saved, we can assume that inside the exit is a very good team of medics with the Bomber antidote.

[WillLem]

we can assume that inside the exit is a very good team of medics with the Bomber antidote.

+1 for this

[mobius]

-big or huge sprawling levels
-levels which have or appear to have very complicated/involved many multi-step solutions.
-when the terrain appears to have been thrown onto the level without much planning or artistic input.

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unusable bombers never bothered me one bit; I always chuckled a bit at them then moved on. While they may be the most used case of a skill you don't need in a puzzle level; any extra unnecessary skill can be inserted into the level to throw the player off. Of course most of the time doing that (with anything other than bomber) runs risk of inserting a back route, why it's so rarely done.

[WillLem]

-big or huge sprawling levels

I disagree; I love these sorts of levels as long as there are plenty of skills to craft out your own solution, or as long as the solution is relatively obvious. Conversely, large maps that are also complicated puzzles: yes, yuck!

-when the terrain appears to have been thrown onto the level without much planning or artistic input.

Agreed.

unusable bombers never bothered me one bit; I always chuckled a bit at them then moved on. While they may be the most used case of a skill you don't need in a puzzle level; any extra unnecessary skill can be inserted into the level to throw the player off

Having recently completed a speedrun of L1 on Amiga, I've come to the conclusion that the unusable Bombers were put there deliberately so that it would be possible for a player to accidentally assign a Bomber instead of, say, a Blocker or Floater (the adjacent skills). Since I have done that a couple of times whilst going through the run (mostly due to relying on arrow keys for skill selection, in real-time, at speed), I would say that this is almost certainly the reason they're there.

Levels like All Or Nothing, Stepping Stones and even (to some extent) We All Fall Down prove that the designers knew that the game had a layer of difficulty that had more to do with the controls than the puzzles, and putting random Bombers in there as another way to add execution difficulty seems like just the sort of thing that they would have found amusing at the time L1 was designed.

The thing is, since NeoLemmix has removed that element of difficulty from the game, it no longer has the same effect, it's just annoying.

[mobius]

-big or huge sprawling levels

I disagree; I love these sorts of levels as long as there are plenty of skills to craft out your own solution, or as long as the solution is relatively obvious. Conversely, large maps that are also complicated puzzles: yes, yuck!

-when the terrain appears to have been thrown onto the level without much planning or artistic input.

Agreed.

unusable bombers never bothered me one bit; I always chuckled a bit at them then moved on. While they may be the most used case of a skill you don't need in a puzzle level; any extra unnecessary skill can be inserted into the level to throw the player off

Having recently completed a speedrun of L1 on Amiga, I've come to the conclusion that the unusable Bombers were put there deliberately so that it would be possible for a player to accidentally assign a Bomber instead of, say, a Blocker or Floater (the adjacent skills). Since I have done that a couple of times whilst going through the run (mostly due to relying on arrow keys for skill selection, in real-time, at speed), I would say that this is almost certainly the reason they're there.

Levels like All Or Nothing, Stepping Stones and even (to some extent) We All Fall Down prove that the designers knew that the game had a layer of difficulty that had more to do with the controls than the puzzles, and putting random Bombers in there as another way to add execution difficulty seems like just the sort of thing that they would have found amusing at the time L1 was designed.

The thing is, since NeoLemmix has removed that element of difficulty from the game, it no longer has the same effect, it's just annoying.

good point. Keep in mind this was the era where this sort of thing was common place. Take a look at games like Chips Challenge or Milon's Secret Castle or Zelda 2. "Gotcha" moments weren't shunned in game design like they are (in many cases anyway) nowadays. [What I call "fake difficulty]
However they're attempt at irritation never worked on me, in this regard anyways! It worked in plenty of other ways...

[Swerdis]

Having played and solved a considerable amount of level packs in the meantime, I give my 50 cents on this topic.

My turn-offs:

1. Boring and uncreative titles.

I dont' know how many "Bubble Bath"  levels or something like that exist....For my taste, titles often stick too close to the level itself, sometimes even spoiling the solution. I like good puns. And I like references to the real existing world outside. Be it literature, architecture, music, sports, natural science or whatever. "The pit and the pendulum" by Geoff comes to my mind in this moment.

2. Vertical scrolling levels

I've got two problems with these. First, these levels often require a lot of jumping back and forth. Secondly, and more importantly, these levels often come along with a lot of Bridge Building. Going from the bottom to the top is self-explanatory since it's the only way to gain height, but it's also true the other way round when bridges have to be built to save Lemmings from being splat. There ARE great levels of this kind like "Gravity Coaster" by Flopsy, but most of them are not.

3. Levels with more than 100 Lemmings

What's the point in that? I just can't see it. For me, even 60 Lemmings would be enough for any puzzle. I've never seen a +100 Lemming-level that wouldn't be as good with a siginificant number of Lemmings less.

4. Levels with more than 4 hatches

That's especially true when this goes along with huge levels and therefore a wild jumping back and forth again. It's even worse when all (or most of the Lemmings) are in immediate danger. I find these levels not fun to play.

5. Lemmings with terrain-removing skills that have to cancel out or pass through each other

This falls into the "easy to spot, but hard to execute" section. It should be the other way round.

6. Bad music

Ok, that's highly subjective. I just can say that I can't listen to the original tunes anymore, so I'm happy with every pack that uses custom music. I admit I have a soft spot for Arty's packs, especially Sub Lems, for he used different tunes for every single level. Considerung tunes, I'm not a big fan of loops too - that's too predictable for my taste.

7. Confusing backgrounds

Not a direct turn-off, but I prefer a simple, traditional black or dark-blue level-background over all these landscape-like alternatives. It looks clearer and it makes it easier to tell terrain from background-objects.

[NieSch]

I just can say that I can't listen to the original tunes anymore, so I'm happy with every pack that uses custom music.

Haha, maybe you play Lemmings too much?

Joking aside, I agree with most of your points. But there are always exceptions to the rule. (For example point 3: I'm fond of my own "Yippee Finale" that features 250 Lemmings. )

[Armani]

Ah interesting post! I've read all of these in the train going home.
I can definitely see something to keep in mind whenever I make a level.

For me, I enjoy every kind of level so there's nothing that really make me turn off immediately.
But if a pack contains so many 10+ of everything open-ended levels, I tend to lose interest quite quickly.
And I also don't like levels with a lot of animated objects. My old laptop simply stop working when I open those kinds of levels.

[Swerdis]

But there are always exceptions to the rule. (For example point 3: I'm fond of my own "Yippee Finale" that features 250 Lemmings. )

Hey, I remember this level and yes - it's a good one. I give you credits for this.

[MASTER-88]

I think im not really have much hate levels. I am managed frame perfect things on console conditions like sliding glitch in Boiler room. Its might one most frustrating thing ever can made on lemmings without tool assist. I just hear most peoples dislike those frame perfect timings.

IMO lemmings have several style levels. Some endurance levels have long lenght, much skills, but are quite easy to completed. Sharp element levels requires sharp timings, but those are mostly shorth. Puzzle type levels which are cunnings, but releativily short. Speedrun type levels, which have hard timelimit.

I´ll mostly try build all type levels my packs.

I think if you make long pack its some good you will show some harder tricks in easier difficult with easy setups. Neolemmings contains a lot tricks you maybe never are see, so when trick like this goes later levels and you not have any idea about it, its goes impossible to completed level. I´ll techinically like all type lemmings levels. Though i only are good build level using orginal boards. How ever i usually play neolemmings using clear physic mode only, so its not matter much is there special boards or not. Special boards are some messy to navigate without clear physic tool. So i´ll personally favor orginal type levels.

Im not really have hate type levels myself. I can always change level if i cannot figured out it and will back it later when i have more fresh ideas.

I am quite patient player myself. So im not really goes mad if i have to reback level over again. Yeah i´ll know its might be very nasty if level have 20 minutes to lenght and your skills end right before goal line. I usually used tons practice replays so i can easily navigate it through again with better and also used tons pen and paper. No trouble for me. I am throw much harder and frustrating things with console conditions without tools. Neolemminsg luckily have replays and tool sets. Yeah that was some really painful make on SNES system when i make those max-% min skills challenge. For example this Boiler Room pixel perfect slide setup at end. Its take me over 8 hours attempts.

[MASTER-88]

6. Bad music

Ok, that's highly subjective. I just can say that I can't listen to the original tunes anymore, so I'm happy with every pack that uses custom music. I admit I have a soft spot for Arty's packs, especially Sub Lems, for he used different tunes for every single level. Considerung tunes, I'm not a big fan of loops too - that's too predictable for my taste.

LOL That was nice thing i totally forget mention. Most lemmings themes are luckily quite good there is only few really bad ones. But i have some pain time when i play Christmas lemmings. I simply turn music off. I hate those themes way too much like all Christmas music.

About neolemmings. If some level have so crap theme, i´ll play it through with lemming editor and change some my favorite theme. So its never are that trouble. I´ll also like most regular lemmings music too. Orig 4 & 10 maybe my favorite funs. I still used those themes my levels sometimes.

About NES lemmings. This version like bug about music and sounds effect, so i´ll turn always music off if i have to throw some sharp things. That when i did pause free solution some hardest levels and i have hear build warning effect and etc.... That most console lemmings trouble.

I currently loved freedomplanet music my own levels. For sure all peoples not like.

But its little bit trouble add music zip. There is size limit what i can to post. I usually have to make 3-4 post add some special music zip. So i´ll recommend you are loaded my music zip when i am post those. Then i not have post those again.

[MASTER-88]

Armani tolde me my pack i´progress is overall good. But few levels he told me is list which he hate.

All Step 5 levels.
-Speedbuilding 2023 ( This level is pixel perfect) Yest it is.
-Just a Minute MASTER edition (Another quite pixel perfect level, but this actually allow few frame errors (But its just a minute NEO Lemmings, SNES version if also pretty naughty) Thats not horrible hard. I havaf to play it thorugh 5x, because broke my replay with backroutes, but its always take some good amount time find correct setups. I think its allow few frame errors here and there. Also level is short
-Impossible Staircase (This level is PURE hell) Armani give up. I myslef spend 2h 30 min with this manipulation. I first plan make it even harder, but when i work 2h 30min. I think its hard enought and for sure it hard enought. Impossible Staircase might be hardest level to completed my pack.

Most my levels not contains those shit things. Like Armani say. Only few your levels are piece of shit and rage quit, most are very nice levels. I´ll make list those levels when my pack are done. Rage quite levels might some fun challenge when you are bored and want make some great.