please help me with a test on timing

[ccexplore]

I'm performing some tests to work out exactly how much time the game really gives you, down to the frame level.̆ However, currently my only means of running Lemmings is through DOSBox, and I'm not always sure whether it emulates some aspects of Lemmings well enough to trust it for perfect timing (particularly I'm uncertain about the fade-in/fade-out aspect).

So I'm hoping someone out here can try this out on a machine that can run Lemmings in DOS mode, without DOSBox.̆ This means it has to be a Windows 95/98/ME machine (or, if you actually still have MS-DOS, that), preferably a desktop machine.̆ I copied some instructions from Microsoft's Help and Support (actually I Googled to get there) for setting up a program to be run in MS-DOS mode:

1. Right-click the program's executable (.exe) file or its .pif file, and then click Properties.̆
2. Click the Program tab, and then click Advanced.̆
3. Click to select the MS-DOS Mode check box

(see http://support.microsoft.com/?id=188157 for further information if interested, not necessary)

Note that MS-DOS mode means Windows will shut down, then restart the machine in a DOS-like setup to run your program (Lemmings in this case).̆ When the program quits the machine will again restart and reload Windows.

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The test to try out is either one of the following custom levels (in LVL format):

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/timelem.zip
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/timeonml.zip

To test original DOS Lemmings (the very original where vgalemmi.exe is only around 32KB or so), use timelem.zip.̆ To test other versions (ONML, CustLemm, non-original DOS Lemmings etc.) use timeonml.zip.̆ I don't know which version of the level is appropriate for the various Xmas Lemmings games so don't bother with those for now.

It's designed to be an exceedingly boring level.̆ You don't have to do anything.̆ In fact, please do not pause the game when "playing" the level.̆ Just let it run on its own until times up (it's a one-minute level).̆ You can scroll around the level if you feel like but as I said, it's boring.

The main thing we are testing is the % saved reported by the game once the level times out.̆ In DOSBox, I get 25% with the game in "PC compatible" machine mode (the default option that most people uses when runing Lemmings).̆ Do you get the same result in real DOS?

For fun, I'm also curious whether the numbers are different in real DOS if you use the other three modes, particularly "High Performance".̆ That mode doesn't even work in DOSBox.̆ I did try the PS/2 mode in DOSBox and it turns out due to the noticeably slower fade-in/fade-out, you get noticeably a bit more time and so 100% is easily achievable.̆ But then again DOSBox aren't using the correct colors when emulating PS/2-mode Lemmings, so maybe the fade-out is not at the correct speed either for all I know.̆ The Amstrad mode seems to behave exactly the same as PC compatible in DOSBox, with the same save percentage results.

Thanks in advance!

[Shvegait]

Test results:

This is a Win98 machine, by the way.

Without entering "DOS mode":
VGALemmi.exe 32k (timelem.lvl) - 25%
nocdlem.exe (timeonml.lvl) - 25%

Entering "DOS mode":
VGALemmi.exe 32k (timelem.lvl) - 25%
nocdlem.exe (timeonml.lvl) - 25%


Results for the other modes:
Without entering "DOS mode":
VGALemmi.exe 32k (High Performance) - Graphics are glitchy, and it runs slower. Saves 100% before the game even fades.
VGALemmi.exe 32k (PS/2) - Same as above.
VGALemmi.exe 32k (AMSTRAD) - 25%, same as PC Compatible. (I couldn't click on any thing at the bottom bar (skill selections or minimap to scroll), so I'm guessing this mode has something to do with (mouse) input.

nocdlem.exe (High Performance) - Same as VGALemmi, of course, using the different level.
nocdlem.exe (PS/2) - Same as above. Actually, the graphical glitches don't occur in the skill bar/minimap in this mode. But as far as the slow fading, slowness and saving 100% goes, it's the same.
nocdlem.exe (AMSTRAD) - 25%, same as before.

I'm not going to do all of the iterations for DOS mode, because it takes time to load back into Windows each time. (I know, you can go to DOS mode and stay there, then load the program multiple times, then load back into Windows, but I don't feel like it!)

So here we go:
nocdlem.exe (High Performance) - No graphical glitches or slowdown (!). Still saves 100%. The fade IS still noticeably longer than in PC Compatible mode, but it's not as long as High Performance in non-"DOS mode".
nocdlem.exe (PS/2) - Same as above.

(So what's up with the difference in starting time between original VGALemmi.exe and the later versions?)

Ha! I guess it's good I did that last test last. Upon rebooting this time, I get this message: "MouseWare has detected a new Pointing device on the PS/2 port. Would you like to configure the new device now?" Aaand, neither my mouse or keyboard are working  A good ol' reboot should do...

[ccexplore]

Wow cool, thanks for the test results!

So it looks like fortunately, my concerns about DOSBox does not pan out.̆ It might not display the levels properly in some cases, but looks like it is nevertheless still exact when it comes to timing.̆ Phew!

Anyway, thanks so much for all these tests you did, I think I have enough information for now.̆ At least this boosters my confidence in using DOSBox for timing results.

VGALemmi.exe 32k (AMSTRAD) - 25%, same as PC Compatible. (I couldn't click on any thing at the bottom bar (skill selections or minimap to scroll), so I'm guessing this mode has something to do with (mouse) input.

Ah yes, I forgot to mention that mouse doesn't seem to work in the Amstrad mode.̆ I resorted to selecting keyboard as the input method (via F4 in game's main menu) for that mode when testing it out.̆ Of course, since you don't need to do anything on the level you can get away with mouse not working.

(So what's up with the difference in starting time between original VGALemmi.exe and the later versions?)

I was puzzled too, but eventually discovered that apparently in original VGALemmi.exe, when lemmings are released from entrance they are released one pixel more to the left than later versions, causing them to have to walk one more pixel in the original VGALemmi.exe.̆ This is why the entrances are lowered in testlem.lvl to accomodate.

Quite surprising to me, but of course one pixel is very unlikely to make a huge difference in most levels.

[finlay]

Just to let you know, I tested it on the mac and got 100% with 10 seconds to spare... :huh2:

[ccexplore]

Just to let you know, I tested it on the mac and got 100% with 10 seconds to spare... :huh2:

As early as over a year ago we had already made the discovery you did.̆ The game clock (the thing that counts down the time you see in the game) runs slower on Mac Lemmings basically, so that the lemmings can do more in Mac Lemmings' 1 minute compared with DOS Lemmings'.̆ Just asked Nuntar who was surprised at how much more difficult "Just a Minute Part II" is on the Sega Genesis/Megadrive after having been used to the Mac version for years.

Based on my personal impression, I think the Amiga/SNES/Genesis versions have the fastest clocks, followed by DOS, followed by the Mac, and I think Windows come last.̆ I don't know anything about the other versions.

The test I was asking about was specifically for DOS Lemmings.

[finlay]

Just to let you know, I tested it on the mac and got 100% with 10 seconds to spare... :huh2:

As early as over a year ago we had already made the discovery you did.  The game clock (the thing that counts down the time you see in the game) runs slower on Mac Lemmings basically, so that the lemmings can do more in Mac Lemmings' 1 minute compared with DOS Lemmings'.  Just asked Nuntar who was surprised at how much more difficult "Just a Minute Part II" is on the Sega Genesis/Megadrive after having been used to the Mac version for years.

Based on my personal impression, I think the Amiga/SNES/Genesis versions have the fastest clocks, followed by DOS, followed by the Mac, and I think Windows come last.  I don't know anything about the other versions.

The test I was asking about was specifically for DOS Lemmings.

I remember you discussing it. Just backing up your claims. I think it's interesting, though...

[Proxima]

Just ask Nuntar who was surprised at how much more difficult "Just a Minute Part II" is on the Sega Genesis/Megadrive after having been used to the Mac version for years.

Your memory is faulty -- I couldn't even do part one on the Genesis without a hint. I guess the shock of the solution I knew not working made it much harder to find a solution than it would have been if I'd come at the level fresh.

[finlay]

I think I was probably more ready for it than you were, then, but it didn't make it much easier. I think I thought of PMing you for a hint when I got to that level, but I managed it eventually (and I did PM you at some point didn't I?)...