[SUG][PLAYER] Displaying Talismans In-Level

[Proxima]

What twelve places? How complicated is talisman mode proposed to be?

A talisman may limit the number of each individual skill (of which there can be up to ten), the total number of skills, and the time limit.

[WillLem]

A talisman may limit the number of each individual skill (of which there can be up to ten), the total number of skills, and the time limit.

It can also increase the save requirement as well, so that's 13 places! That being the case, I definitely think that an in-level popup menu would be good as well as "talisman mode" (which could still do with a proper explanation, tbf...)

[namida]

(which could still do with a proper explanation, tbf...)

What do you mean by "a proper explanation"? Is there something you don't understand in the proposal - if so, what's the question? Or do you mean as in consideration of how to explain it to new players?

[WillLem]

What do you mean by "a proper explanation"? Is there something you don't understand in the proposal - if so, what's the question?

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

I don't understand. Do you mean that the skill would display two numbers of different colours...?

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

This is the bit I don't really understand. Would there be two sets of numbers above talisman-affected skills?

[namida]

Ah, my bad.

So - this could be open to discussion, but the way I envision it working is that there'd be a single number displayed, and like the current situation, it would tell the player how many times they can use this skill - in this case, it's how many times they can without exceeding the talisman rules.

The difference is that under normal circumstances, there's only one reason for the skill's limit: The player only has that many of the skill in the skillset. If you look at the panel under normal circumstances and see a "5" above Bashers, it's because the skillset only has 5 bashers (or it had more but you've used them).

However, talisman mode would mean there could be three possible reasons why the skill is limited:
a) As before, due to the amount of skills in the skillset.
b) Due to a "Use no more than X of this skill" requirement in the talisman.
c) Due to a "Use no more than X total skills" requirement in the talisman.

Thus, my idea is to only display one number - whichever one is the most restrictive - and recolor the number to indicate the reason for it. For example, perhaps we keep the current white when the reason is "this is how many of the skill you have in the skillset", while changing it to yellow if it's "there's a limit on this specific skill", or to red if it's "there's a total skill limit". (Of course, other colors could be used instead; this is more about the general idea than the exact colors.)

To give an in-game example, let's suppose a level gives you 10 builders, 10 bashers and 20 miners. It has a talisman for "solve with no more than 5 builders, and no more than 15 total skills". At the start of gameplay, talisman mode would display (keeping the example colors from above):
- A yellow 5 for builders. You can only use 5 builders due to the "no more than 5 builders" requirement, which is the strictest limit on builders.
- A white 10 for bashers. You can only use 10 bashers due to the skillset only giving you 10, which is the strictest limit on bashers.
- A red 15 for miners. You can only use 15 miners due to the "no more than 15 total skills" requirement, which is the strictest limit on miners.

This would of course change during play. Let's suppose the player used 6 miners. At this point, nothing changes for builders, but for bashers, the "9 more total skills" is now stricter than the "10 bashers in the skillset", so it would change to a red 9; miners are still most strictly limited by the total skill allowance, and would also display a red 9. Let's suppose the player used another 6 miners (12 total miners). At this point, the "3 more total skills" (out of 15 total) is the strictest limit on all three skills, so all three would display as a red 3.

[WillLem]

Thus, my idea is to only display one number - whichever one is the most restrictive - and recolor the number to indicate the reason for it

Ah, cool! I thought that might be what you meant, but I just wanted to make sure.

This is very similar to the original idea I had: basically, the talisman criteria is applied to the level upon pressing the talisman button:

When the player clicks on the talisman, it is highlighted, and the relevant criteria for achieving it are immediately applied to the level

However, I suggested that each talisman should have its own button, whereas your idea of cycling them from one button is obviously much neater.

Proxima initially pointed out some issues with a possible "Talisman Mode" which are worth addressing:

First, there may be more than one talisman of the same colour. Second, changing the level doesn't work for "maximum number of total skills" talismans. Third, restarting the level is intrusive -- especially if the player is just checking the talisman requirements and might have almost finished the level! Finally, it's not clear how to make room for extra panel buttons, and you have to consider both the full and compact skill panels here.

The "cycling button" idea deals with the first and last of these issues, and there's of course no need to restart the level upon applying talisman mode - it could be that if a player has already gone beyond a talisman's requirements, then that particular one would simply be grayed out, or it could be turned red to indicate that it is no longer possible.

The second issue remains, though - how would Talisman Mode deal with "maximum number of total skills"?

if the talisman conditions are accomplished while not being enforced, it should still count. It should also be possible to undo the restriction at any time so you can give up on the talisman and simply go for the regular solution without having to restart the level.

+1 for these comments from Dullstar, as well. I think people generally feel that Talisman Mode should be as un-intrusive and/or un-disruptive to gameflow as possible.

+1. Especially on early ranks, I like to pay attention to talismans, just to make the solutions more interesting... Thus, if we have the hard requirements visible on the panel, the soft level requirements should be visible there, as well!

This quote from Strato pretty much sums up why a Talisman Mode would be particularly good.

Essentially, it removes the need for repeat levels, and gives players the choice of whether they want to go for the "hard" solution, or play the level more casually with the "soft" level requirements.

This opens up possibilities for level designers to make their levels much more accessible to people of all ability levels.

Of course, it could still be that later ranks do away with talismans and simply present harder levels - that way, players can still gain forum credibility and personal satisfaction from having beaten a pack at its hardest.

[namida]

The second issue remains, though - how would Talisman Mode deal with "maximum number of total skills"?

If the talisman conditions are visible from the preview screen (which itself is under discussion as to whether they should be or not), and it is clearly shown there whether or not there's a maximum skill limit, do you think specifically showing the (remaining) limit in game on top of having the per-skill limits as suggested above (which would in turn reveal the maximum total skill allowance once it becomes relevant) is necessary?

[WillLem]

If the talisman conditions are visible from the preview screen... do you think specifically showing the (remaining) limit in game on top of having the per-skill limits as suggested above... is necessary?

No, not at all. If it works in the same way as individual skill limits, i.e. changing colour or not allowing further skill assignments, this would be fine. It would need to be something in-game though, as it's way too easy to forget talisman info from the preview screen.

[namida]

If the talisman conditions are visible from the preview screen... do you think specifically showing the (remaining) limit in game on top of having the per-skill limits as suggested above... is necessary?

No, not at all. If it works in the same way as individual skill limits, i.e. changing colour or not allowing further skill assignments, this would be fine. It would need to be something in-game though, as it's way too easy to forget talisman info from the preview screen.

Let's just make sure I've been clear enough about what I mean here, because reading it again now I'm not sure I did clearly explain what I meant.

I'm referring to my earlier suggestion, re: "show the strictest limit that applies, and use a color to indicate whether it's a skillset limit, a talisman single-skill limit, or a talisman total-skills limit". If we have this, in combination with the preview screen explicitly showing "max skills", do you think this is good enough? Or do you think there should also be a dedicated in-level display for max skills?

There are cases where this would mean the max-total isn't immediately visible. For example, if a talisman restricts the player to 5 builders, 5 bashers, 8 total skills, then until the player has used 3 of one of the skills, there'd be no direct indication of the "8 total skills" (or the remaining portion thereof) - because it would be covered up by other, stricter limits.

Another option is to have a dedicated "maximum skills" field on the panel. In terms of positioning / space, there are several options:
a) It replaces (or displaces, possibly by introducing another top/bottom split panel similar to directional select buttons) one of the existing buttons when talisman mode is activated.
b) There's a permanent placeholder, possibly displayed with the "empty skill slot" graphic, that gets filled in when talisman mode is activated.
c) There's a permanent, non-placeholder space. This could either do nothing when not in talisman mode, or perhaps be used for a future feature that allows limiting max skills even outside of talismans. (Note that such a feature is not promised EVEN IF this display method is decided on in general. And I recall that this idea was suggested in the past and didn't have much support.)
or d) Use the info text area (I think I suggested this earlier). Whenever in talisman mode and no lemming is mouseovered, display the max skill count in the area that displays info about the mouseovered lemming.

These are in order from hardest to easiest to implement. So the further up the list it is, the stronger support I'd need to see to go ahead with it. "Stronger" could be in terms of either numbers or reasoning.

[Armani]

I have a suggestion on how to display talismans ingame.
Show every talisman of the level on top left of the screen with checkboxes.

eg)
V Save at least 58 lemmings.(59/58)
- Complete using no more than 20 total skills.(17/20)
X Complete using no more than 20 total skills.(23/20)

I took a picture from one of the campaign missions of Starcraft2.
I think this is cool way to display what you need to do ingame.

[namida]

Not sure how practical that would be - much like the hotkeys for the skill panel thing, it'd have to match the resolution of what's being drawn underneath it (either that, or be displayed in a popup that fully obscures whatever's underneath it).

[WillLem]

Nice idea Armani, but since Talismans are most often not completed until the level is fully solved, I think that always having them on display could just be a needless distraction.

Maybe the idea could be implemented via a button which shows/hides the talisman criteria in the way that Armani has suggested. A popup would also be sufficient for this purpose though tbf.

[Dullstar]

Ignoring the technical constraints, I like Armani's idea in conjunction with a button to toggle it. It would flow better than a popup as WillLem suggests, and likely whatever technical stuff is required to make it work might also allow implementing the hotkey thing, assuming it would be feasible to fix.

[WillLem]

Maybe the idea could be implemented via a button which shows/hides the talisman criteria in the way that Armani has suggested

I like Armani's idea in conjunction with a button to toggle it. It would flow better than a popup as WillLem suggests

Yes exactly, that's what I meant (see first comment). I mentioned a popup because that would also work (and NeoLemmix employs popups for a range of other features, so it would be arguably less out-of-place).

Definitely more in favour of Armani's idea generally, though, just to be clear.