Release: Lemmix Players V29I (unofficial)

Aaron44126 · August 08, 2020, 08:20:07 PM

Seems like you would have to build up to access the inaccessible exit right? The 9 builder skills available are all necessary to reach the exit area as far as I can tell. It might be possible to just squeak by and skip one of them but that's not how solutions to the Amiga and SMS versions of the game that I have seen work (it would be counter to the level designers intent for how the level should work in any case).

[Edit]
Just saw Proxima's response. I considered NeoLemmix when starting my casual play-through but was put off by some of the decisions like forced "skill shadows". I'm looking for a more authentic classic experience that doesn't remove the execution difficulty, and these Lemmix Players fit the bill. This is why I've also added options to remove the ability to rewind, frame step, assign skills while paused, etc.

In any case. I'll make an update that moves the exit only and leaves the terrain alone.
This video shows Lemmings exiting even with the raised exit on Amiga so there seems to be a difference there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwKd_2zE6WI

Aaron44126 · August 08, 2020, 10:09:15 PM

Published V29G, level "fixed" by burying the exit (no terrain adjustment). Looks a little silly, but it works...

Aaron44126 · September 05, 2020, 02:30:19 AM

Before I make an adjustment, I am curious what you think of this one. It is in the "Extra" pack, "Sega" level 10. It is called "Stepping Stones".

It is a variant of Mayhem level 21 "With a twist of lemming please".

The entrance is too high and the lemmings splat when they hit the ground. Mayhem 21 has enough floaters to save them all, but Sega 10 just offers 2 floater skills. It also has 20 total lemmings and you have to bring 85% to the goal, so only three are allowed to splat.

I guess you are supposed to float a couple of lemmings at the start and quickly get steps built so that the remaining ones won't splat. I haven't found a way to do it with less than 4 splatting. One set of steps is not enough, you need to build two and it takes too long.

The SMS version which this level is based on is set up in such a way that you can keep lemmings from splatting with just one builder skill. Float the first lemming, have him build right to left, float the second one, and then the rest will fall safely. This doesn't work in the Lemmix Player version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiyKNaEcf5o
(Just looking at the first ≈35 seconds here, I haven't even thought about the rest of the level yet.)

As such I feel that an adjustment to this level is needed so that the original SMS strategy will work. The simplest thing seems to be to lower the entrance by a few pixels.

kaywhyn · September 05, 2020, 02:41:26 AM

Hey Aaron, no adjustment is needed to the level.

Spoiler

You need to make a little dent in the wall by interrupting a basher or a miner midstroke. Then you can build to the left inside that hole, which is at a higher place and this should allow only 1 or 2 lemmings to splat and the rest to survive with just one builder bridge.

namida · September 05, 2020, 02:46:07 AM

Honestly, a better job could have probably been done here than just "take existing DOS layout, apply SMS skillset / stats". For example, the RR hasn't been adjusted to account for the difference in SMS release rates vs DOS ones (SMS release rates are more comparable to those of NeoLemmix than to those of DOS / Lemmix).

This is my fault as I'm the one who produced this "conversion" of that level.

Aaron44126 · September 05, 2020, 02:53:54 AM

Quote from: kaywhyn on September 05, 2020, 02:41:26 AM
Hey Aaron, no adjustment is needed to the level.

Spoiler

You need to make a little dent in the wall by interrupting a basher or a miner midstroke. Then you can build to the left inside that hole, which is at a higher place and this should allow only 1 or 2 lemmings to splat and the rest to survive with just one builder bridge.

I don't think that you should have to invoke a trick that wasn't necessary in the level that this one is based on.
I'll make a tweak and post back with what I come up with.

I did just finish playing through the rest of the SMS converted levels and it was pretty fun, no real issues with any of them except this one.

kaywhyn · September 05, 2020, 03:32:37 AM

There was a very similar level that used Mayhem 21's layout that was a LDC I played just a few days ago for United that uses the exact same trick at the beginning, but the solution relied on the fact that bombers are untimed in NL, and so on engines without it it wouldn't be possible without tweaking the level or save requirement. Yes, it doesn't quite use the same things the original solutions used, but there's nothing wrong with taking an existing level and making a level that has a very different solution.

In any case, it's your call as to what you want to do with the level, as I'm not going to be nitpicky that the level should be left as it is. I simply wanted to explain that the level is possible in its current state in that it requires a bit of clever usage of the skills to get onto a higher place to make a splatform with just one bridge. I will gladly play any Lemmings level as long as it's solvable.

Aaron44126 · September 05, 2020, 03:22:54 PM

I adjusted the layout to more closely match the SMS layout, while keeping the "aesthetic" of the Mayhem/DOS level. I also lowered the release rate (as namida mentioned, it is slower on SMS). The level can be completed using the same strategy as the SMS level (with 100% / 0 splats).

I have the LVL file here if anyone would like to playtest it or offer feedback; I'll bundle it up and release in a few days.

[Edit] Realized that I definitely need to adjust it... there is too much brick before the "gap" on the left side.
[Edit 2] Fixed.

namida · September 05, 2020, 08:38:32 PM

I wonder if it's worth replicating the steel at the bottom too? I can definitely think of solutions that take advantage of the lack of steel, that would not have worked on actual SMS.

Aaron44126 · September 05, 2020, 09:21:12 PM

Reasonable...
Just figuring out steel for the first time in the editor, I think I have a good recreation here. The dimensions of the steel boxes are off slightly from the SMS version because the available objects to choose from are all two pixels shorter in each dimension, but close enough I think.

[Edit] Just tidying up the terrain...

EricLang · February 03, 2021, 11:23:01 PM

I started following this thread and the github with interest :-)

Aaron44126 · February 04, 2021, 12:05:43 AM

Quote from: EricLang on February 03, 2021, 11:23:01 PM
I started following this thread and the github with interest :-)

Ha, thanks... And thank you very much for the work that you put into the base version of Lemmix, I definitely appreciate having a platform to play Lemmings in a "classic" fashion, in a "sort of" modern way at the same time.

I've just been tweaking as I find things but I don't think that I'll be doing much more. Hopefully this is helpful for anyone else who wants a classic Lemmings experience on a modern system (no "shortcuts" or help with execution!).

Since the last update, I got through all of the Christmas/holiday levels without spotting any issues... I still have to go through the Genesis ones and ONML but I'm not really expecting to see anything there either as it looks like they should have been ported cleanly from the original versions.

EricLang · February 04, 2021, 01:01:35 AM

Thank you. I will checkout this thread soon for ideas.
With the latest Lemmix (sioon on github) I will provide a set of 4300 levels which I gathered from the internet. If you have new "Lemmix compatible" levels let me know :-)
I am thinking of creating a dedicated new editor as well for this game. The old program is too old on new windows versions.
Another advantage would be that the internal levelsystem is known (including all user levels) and there is no complicated setup needed.
Still thinking what is the best way to go...

EricLang · February 07, 2021, 10:50:58 PM

I think the new lemmix meets all the needs for this clone.
When you wish so, put in some issues in https://github.com/ericlangedijk/Lemmix/issues regarding the changes. and I can build them in.
Like the key-bindings and "classic experience".

Aaron44126 · April 02, 2021, 02:44:21 AM

Having trouble with "Don't follow me", number 20 in the Genesis pack, and I'm wondering if it's impossible because of the engine rules or if I'm just doing it wrong.

You just have three miner skills, and ten Lemmings which must all survive. You're supposed to used the first two miner skills on the ramps heading up so that the Lemmings don't splat or get trapped. The third miner skill has to be used at the very end of the horizontal platform so that both the miner and the lemming immediately trailing him do not splat off the end.

Here's a video of the solution (on the actual Genesis version). It's TAS but that doesn't really matter, the solution is simple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ELsGGMvbM

In Lemmix, the problem for me is at the very end when the third miner skill is used. I can save the trailing lemming but the miner himself always splats. This doesn't really make sense to me because they fall the same distance (or if anything the miner's fall is actually a little bit less). Is it possible to save the miner with a very specific placement of the skill or something, or maybe this level also needs an adjustment?

(Also, knocking just one pixel off of the horizontal platform doesn't seem to be enough to save the immediately trailing lemming as shown in the video, but two pixels appears to do it.)