A second gimmick pack?

[namida]

- Superlemming - increases the game speed - Great potential, clearly my favourite of the gimmicks.

This, along with Frenzy, objectively has the least potential when looked at from an NL point of view. You cannot make any puzzle using these that cannot be made without them; all they do is make your puzzle more difficult to execute.

It also strikes me as very ironic that you claim this one, which does not actually change anything other than how fast the game runs, as having "great potential" when you've dismissed several that really do have a lot of potential.

Cheapo Mode - different settings for splat height - Could be fun, it's basically permanent splat/antisplat pads; could generate some interesting levels.

Cheapo Mode is not a proper gimmick; and the fall distance is not the only thing it changes. I'm not going to go into details because the correct way to use it is "don't use it, except in the case of actual Cheapo conversions that need it".



And I'll also stress again that in general, new content should not be made for old versions in the first place.

[Strato Incendus]

- Overflow skill count - IIRC - Not sure what this does as the description was just "IIRC"...?

Yeah, sorry, I had forgotten about that. I just checked again what it does and added it to the list - it basically amounts to having infinite skills of whatever is on your panel. Something you could actually do back in the day, at least in the Atari version. (Anyone else who played that version? As a kid, I liked the fact that the rotation started with "Coming round the mountain"... plus, you could skip levels you weren't able to solve, which is how I got to just take a look at the higher-rank levels for the first time, because up to that point there had always been roadblocks on each of the upper three ranks.)

And I'll also stress again that in general, new content should not be made for old versions in the first place.

At this point, version 1.43 is so vastly different from New Formats in so many ways that I almost consider it a different engine rather than an old version of NeoLemmix: different skillsets, different physics regarding level sides, the whole list of gimmicks that is not available in New Formats, Ghosts, radiation, slowfreeze - and, most of all, it's genuinely written in a different language.

Trying to discourage people who like gimmicks from making content for version 1.43 is about as effective as telling people who like timed Bombers not to make content for Lemmix.

Not to be confused with Lemmicks.

This, along with Frenzy, objectively has the least potential when looked at from an NL point of view. You cannot make any puzzle using these that cannot be made without them; all they do is make your puzzle more difficult to execute.

It also strikes me as very ironic that you claim this one, which does not actually change anything other than how fast the game runs, as having "great potential" when you've dismissed several that really do have a lot of potential.

Here on the other hand I have to agree with namida (not like I didn't mention it earlier myself, WillLem). And it's hard for two people to collaborate on a pack if their design philosophies are that much opposed. This impression is amplified to me by your apparent enthusiasm about the Clock gimmick.

Really like this idea! It basically sounds like a random-level-creation algorithm!

I think by now you've noticed that the word "random" triggers something close to an instant allergic reaction in most NeoLemmix players...

This is the main reason why I didn't straight up announce I would to a follow-up to Lemmicks, but wanted to wait and see what I would get myself into. I just opened this thread to test the waters regarding the general interest of the community in another gimmick pack, and to get an update on the popularity of various gimmicks among the newer members. So far, though, only WillLem and Dullstar have stated their preferences regarding specific gimmicks.

Of course, I would be a hypocrite if I said "I used Superlemming and Frenzy on the Hasty rank in Lemmicks, now you don't get to use them". Of course you can put any gimmick you like in your own levels as much as you want.

It's just that Frenzy and Superlemming are not gimmicks I would want to use in any of my packs again - and thus, this extends to packs I'm collaborating on, i.e. "I won't put my signature under that" - because designing such levels feels kind of pointless if either
a) the impact on the level is so minor that it doesn't add any challenge (neither to the puzzle nor the execution), or
b) the execution becomes so hard that most players just end up skipping the rank, at which point you've designed the levels in vain.

At the same time, as namida said, you're proposing to ditch a lot of gimmicks that do have puzzle potential. Above all turn around on assign, countdown other skills, and hardworkers.

Since I currently have several packs in development anyway - Lemmings Open Air, Lemmings Hall of Fame, and Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll - maybe @WillLem it would be a good idea for you to start designing a small gimmick pack by yourself? Just to see what you can come up with. You've been quite quick in the beginning when it came to designing several smaller packs (Let's Go! The WillLem levels, Tame Gone Wild, Lemminas etc.)

We can still collaborate on a Lemmicks Origins / Lemmicks Genesis after that.

I have thrown my hat in the ring with Lemmicks, so you know what my philosophy looks like, as far as gimmicks are concerned. But I have yet to see in action where you'd like to take them.
Currently, you find a lot of gimmicks interesting, and sure, many of them sound interesting when you hear about them for the first time... but give them a shot in practice, and they will quickly boil down to a few strong candidates.

Then I / we (the community) would also get to see what these "easy gimmick levels", which you proposed to allow the player to explore the new mechanics, would look like.

[WillLem]

This, along with Frenzy, objectively has the least potential when looked at from an NL point of view. You cannot make any puzzle using these that cannot be made without them; all they do is make your puzzle more difficult to execute.

I agree: I probably wouldn't make levels that were particularly puzzle-driven for the Superlemming gimmick, it would essentially become more a reaction/timing-based challenge. That said, it may be fun to include puzzle elements in the later levels to increase the difficulty in that regard, rather than making ridiculously hard execution stuff.

It also strikes me as very ironic that you claim this one, which does not actually change anything other than how fast the game runs, as having "great potential" when you've dismissed several that really do have a lot of potential.

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding here: I meant potential as a gimmick rather than potential for making what you might consider "good levels". Since Superlemming affects the game's speed, it has the potential to create a completely different Lemmings-playing experience. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is subject to opinion, of course.

And I'll also stress again that in general, new content should not be made for old versions in the first place.

To be honest, I agree with this to some extent. And, my enthusiasm for this project probably isn't quite as high as you might think. Like Mantha, I think it would be better if it were possible to make gimmick levels for new formats. But since it isn't, making a 1.43 project is a very distant second best.

At this point, version 1.43 is so vastly different from New Formats in so many ways that I almost consider it a different engine rather than an old version of NeoLemmix

I also do agree with this, but I can understand why Namida would rather people not focus their creative energies on a version of NL that he's happy to see the back of. I have to say, it does kind of affect my own enthusiasm for the project as well - 1.43 is a very clunky and ugly version of NeoLemmix that offers very little in the way of visual customisation.

This impression is amplified to me by your apparent enthusiasm about the Clock gimmick... I think by now you've noticed that the word "random" triggers something close to an instant allergic reaction in most NeoLemmix players...

Fair enough!

I really do like the idea of coming back to a level at a different time of day and it's completely different! That seems cool! Mind you, you could achieve the same thing in new formats by sending a level to someone and asking them to make a change to the terrain.

maybe @WillLem it would be a good idea for you to start designing a small gimmick pack by yourself?

I might do... I find the 1.43 Editor very frustrating after getting used to the new one, but it might be worth it to explore some of the ideas I have for gimmick levels. Maybe, given the direction the conversation seems to be going in, it would be best for me to concentrate my energies on projects for new formats, and - playing people's packs!

On that note, let's put this idea on the shelf where it clearly belongs.