Lemmings Redux follow-up project

[Proxima]

So, Lemmings Redux is about to wrap up. Back when I first proposed the project, one idea I had for it was that we could include our own repeats of the existing levels. This wasn't taken up, partly because when we started putting the pack together, we had no problem finding over 100 levels we wanted to keep. But I would love to do this as a follow-up project: a pack consisting entirely of repeats of levels from the original games.

This isn't a new idea, of course. Before I joined this forum (in one of its older incarnations) and discovered level editors such as LemEdit and Cheapo, the only level editing tool I had was ResEdit. This stores the level data in database format, with fields for number of lemmings, number of each skill etc, and then one large field for the terrain. It's like opening the text file of a Lix level, except that terrain pieces are numbered instead of named, and there's nothing to guide you as to which numbers are the piece ID and which are the coordinates; you have to work all that out for yourself. Needless to say, instead of bothering with all this, my first ever pack consisted entirely of repeats in which I only changed the titles, statistics and skillsets.

For this project, I'd like to collaborate with other forum members. Before starting, though, I'd like to know who's interested in participating, and I think we should have a group discussion of the aims and rules for this project and what levels we will accept. In particular, I think the questions that need answering are these:

* Should this be a separate pack, or a bonus rank in Redux? Or decide later depending on how many levels we get?

* How selective do we want to be? Include all proposed levels, or go through a voting process similar to Redux (but hopefully less protracted, since I'll be taking a firmer lead from the outset)?

* Which originals should be eligible for making repeats of? Certainly, all levels from the original games that already exist for NeoLemmix are fair game: Original Lemmings, ONML, Holiday, everything in the Extra pack, and the remakes of the Lemmings 2 Classic tribe. We could, if it's what the group decides, expand the net to include some of the following: Lemmings 2 (the remaining tribes), Lemmings 3, Lemmings 3D, Lemmings Paintball, Lemmings Revolution, and Lemmings PS3.

* What modifications to the originals are acceptable? Since we're doing repeats (not straight remakes), we can vary the skillset and level statistics to facilitate a new solution. Is it okay to modify the terrain slightly if our solution idea requires it? How about adding or moving objects? Remaking levels in other tilesets?

* Should we stick with the original 8 skills, or allow all NeoLemmix skills? Should we allow all NeoLemmix objects?

* Do we allow the pack to include levels that are also part of other large packs? Do we include existing repeats of the original levels by authors no longer on the forum (e.g. Ellischant's "Lemming Cliche", an excellent repeat of Fun 3)?

I'm really looking forward to working on this pack, so I hope it takes off

[Flopsy]

I am all for contributing to this project, it sounds like an ambitious one and one which a lot of forum users could end up easily getting involved in.

If we get a lot of interest in the project then we should definitely recommend making it a separate pack rather than a bonus rank to Redux.

It's a bit hard to narrow the levels down without letting people create remakes, I mean there are a lot of remade levels out there already. I think we should keep an open mind and find out what people are interested in remaking.
I believe this is going to be what is discussed a lot in this topic at length however but we should be open and optimistic about the scope of what can be remade with alternative solutions.

I think we should allow Lemmings Revolution, Lemmings PS3, Lemmings 2, Lemmings 3 and even Lemmings 3D - yes let me explain this one.

In SEB Lems, I remade 12 Lemmings 3D levels
Paradise 10 - Lemmtris 3D (remake of Lemmtris - a complete 2D level)
Paradise 11 - Party in my Head (inspired by Let the Race Begin - a complete 2D level)
Paradise 16 - It's the Name of the Game (same name in L3D - a completely 2D level pretty much)
Bittersweet 3 - Sweet Memories (remake of Jelly Belly Birthday Cake - 3D level reimagined in 2D)
Bittersweet 5 - HMS Hamish Macbeth (Remake of This is the Army - another practically 2D level)
Bittersweet 8 - The Acrobrats (Remake of That's Right - 2D level but another trapdoor added in SEB Lems version)
Revolution 13 - The Big Bang (Remake of Picky Platform - Another mostly 2D level)
Stormy 5 - This is NOT a drill (Remake of Team Work - 3D level reimagined in 2D)
Stormy 12 - SNAKE! (Remake of SNAKE! - 3D level reimagined in 2D)
Murder 1 - The Five Arches (Remake of The Five Arches - Another mostly 2D level)
Deep Cuts 1 - Industrial Climber Zone (Inspired by Jelly Climber)
Deep Cuts 4 - Pseudologia Fantastica (Remake of Play Time - 3D level reimagined in 2D)
Looking at these levels are just simple examples of how L3D level ideas can be made into 2D levels.

While it is optimistic to include Lemmings Paintball in this, I really don't see how this project could accommodate this game as it is a very different type of game with a more overhead viewpoint. If anyone has got any ideas here, I'd love to hear them because I am indeed a fan of the game.

Regarding allowed modifications - I'd say with the exception of Revolution and 3D, we should allow reasonable adjustments to facilitate a new solution to the level but not extreme movements of the terrain, ie. not by more than a few pixels. Deleting one or 2 small pieces of terrain is acceptable I'd say if it's for solution purposes. Adding/removing objects should be taken lightly.
In the case of Revolution/3D, we should do what ever it takes to make the level work in a 2D plane while keeping the general idea of the level or coming up with a different solution which keeps the gist of the level in mind (see the SEB Lems levels mentioned above).

What tilesets should be used - in the case of some games, we don't have a like for like swap when it comes to tilesets (eg. Lemmings 3D and Lemmings Revolution). I used appropriate tilesets for the 3D levels, for example: Circus subs for the Block tileset pretty well.
I'd say it's acceptable to use other tilesets if we don't have a tileset which is likened to the tileset on the original game otherwise, use the normal tileset which the level is assigned to.

I'd say Neo Lemmix skills should be allowed as it would broaden the horizons of what kinds of levels we could get.

On the subject of using levels which are part of larger level packs which have already been released, I'm all for it as long as there is still room in the pack for creationism between us after we've considered these inclusions.
I think that obviously having permission of the pack creators is crucial where possible, in the event of them not being active then it should be assumed it is ok.
Obviously the 12 levels from SEB Lems mentioned above are potential candidates for L3D remakes.
I know Arty has a whole rank dedicated to remakes in Sublems also which are Original/Genesis Lemmings remakes.

Also we should set a rule that we have one remake per level obviously, in the event that we have more than 1 potential candidate then that is subject to a vote/discussion.

This is my 2 cents anyway, yes I'm very open ended about the kind of project we do. I'm more throwing my suggestion in to show that L3D level remakes are possible and also set a template of replies to follow mine.

[Nessy]

* I say we should make this a separate pack in order to encourage more submissions and ideas, and to keep "Redux" as only a remake without our own solutions (The pack can even be called "Reloaded" ).

* We should accept all proposed levels at first, and we shouldn't treat this as a "first come first serve" type of pack. For example, if two people make a remake level out of the same level we should include them both at the beginning, and then encourage others to play both of them to decide which one to keep. However, if they are both good but one is easier than the other, we could make them be "Part 1" and "Part 2" levels (Of course, if ten people remake the same level then, yes, we could start placing stricter limits then).

* We can get creative and have all ports be eligible. Many people have already done remakes of the "classic" levels, so I would love to see how others would go about Lemmings 2, Lemmings 3, etc. Flopsy has already proven that even something like 3D Lemmings can be done (although I'm not sure about Lemmings Paintball but I would love if someone were to prove me wrong).

* We should allow small modifications such as adding some steel or terrain or moving existing terrain to make the new solution work. It will help to create new solutions and remove any backroutes without sacrificing the core layout of the original level.

* 8 classic skills, NeoLemmix skills, and NeoLemmix objects.

* If we decide to include already made levels from other's packs we should get their permission if they are still active, but it should be okay if they are no longer active to use them without permission.

* Finally, level designers should have a choice on whether they want to rename their remade level especially if it reflects their new solution in some way.

[SQron188]

I agree with pretty much everything said so far, seeing as there are are no conflicting views at the time of writing this.
I don't have anything against remaking any particular levels from any particular game.

[Proxima]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to lock this topic now and start a new topic for the actual collection of levels, so that I can keep a list of submitted levels in the first post of the topic.

The new first post will have a full list of the rules I've decided on for this project, but for now, I'll quickly respond to a few things that have been raised.

The project will accept levels from existing packs, such as Nessy's Reloaded and Arty's Retro rank. Everyone is welcome to nominate levels from their own or others' packs. All nominated levels, and all levels newly created for the project, will be included at first, and if necessary we'll go through a selection process later. But levels from existing packs will not be automatically included just because they exist. As Nepster pointed out, there are a lot of mediocre repeats of existing levels out there, so I want this to be a "best-of" project.

Remakes of levels from all Lemmings games will be eligible. However, this is a pack for your solutions to existing layouts, not remakes of the original solutions. (I've encouraged Flopsy to post his remakes nonetheless, for anyone who wants to use them as a basis for repeats.)

I will require repeats to have a different title from the original level. I can try to think up titles if you can't come up with anything.

It's fine to have more than one repeat per original, but for levels from non-L1 games that need remaking, I'd like two different repeats of the same remake, rather than both authors remaking the level individually. However, small modifications such as adding steel or terrain to make a solution work or prevent backroutes are fine (and that goes for L1-based games as well).

[Proxima]

We've had some discussion in chat about the name for this project, and I've decided to put up a poll with the current suggestions.

[GigaLem]

You know if you guys want, I can merge my "Lemmings in Arms" project with this

[Proxima]

Might be a good idea at this stage; it looks like you haven't had many submissions for Lemmings in Arms, so it might not get finished.

If you want to submit any levels from the project, they'll be under the same rules as other submissions: all nominated levels will be added to the pool of levels from which the final pack will be selected, and they may be edited if there are backroutes or other problems that need fixing.

[Flopsy]

You know if you guys want, I can merge my "Lemmings in Arms" project with this

I think this is a good idea also

[GigaLem]

I'll lock the thread and link the the follow up project here, I'll also PM the levels if necessary

Edit:Done!

Second Edit: I know of a name Lemmings Mania in all seriousness If possible, it may be unofficial but I've though of remaking the Lemmings and Oh no More Lemmings returns levels in Neolemmix at some point, you can find the solutions online and use those as reference if you so wish. Another thing is if possible Reinterpret Lemmings Touch puzzles as well. lastly the name....hmmm...how about.......(Lemmings Lemmings Revolution? nah people won't get the reference...Oh Dear! Even More Lemmings! nah too easy.....Lemmings Utopia? Reinstalled?....crap none of these are good ahh!)

[Proxima]

Lemmings Mania

Awesome suggestion! I asked the others in IRC just now and everyone likes it, so Lemmings Mania it is!

I'll start the thread for it tomorrow, I'm too tired right now after my first day at work.

[GigaLem]

Lemmings Mania

Awesome suggestion! I asked the others in IRC just now and everyone likes it, so Lemmings Mania it is!

I'll start the thread for it tomorrow, I'm too tired right now after my first day at work.

I wasn't serious about honestly, I was gonna use that title when all the Sonic mania sets + Lemmings plus redesigns were made for a showcase.
Guess I'll have to go with Lemmings Discovery

[Flopsy]

Please no one shoot me but I have a remade version of I am A.T

Called "I am ATypical"

When the project starts, I'll upload the L3D remakes I have from SEB Lems and allow others to make alternative solutions to these as agreed in the IRC.