[FIXED][BUG/SUGGESTION][EXP] Restore priority order

namida · May 20, 2016, 07:22:36 AM

I'm not sure if the change was a bug or intentional, but either way, I do not like it at all!

(Once the upload finishes, my experience with it is visible in this video: https://youtu.be/cQwItity7_0 )

Anyway, under Lemmix, as well as stable (and all older) versions of NeoLemmix, the core part of how the priority works is "Without any reason to prioritize a different lemming, last lemming to spawn has highest priority". The latest experimental version changes this so that the *first* lemming to spawn has highest priority.

I'm not sure what the reasoning was for this change, but I'd be interested to hear more about it. I don't like the change at all; if there's a solid reason for it then perhaps it's something that will turn out okay, but if not, I strongly think this should be changed back.

IchoTolot · May 20, 2016, 10:29:08 AM

After watching and trying out the effects of this change: I am greatly on namida's side here!

I would really hate

this change, because:
Selecting the first Lemming of a line is always easy ----> just move the coursor to the front of the line.
The Lemmings after that are important to get! And this was ensured with the old priority order! ----> slightly move the cursor back and you will get the 2nd,
3rd etc Lemming of the Line.

So I will highly favor the old algorithm here! If some people for some reason I currently don't see want to use the new priority system ----> make that an option and use the old one as standard

Simon · May 20, 2016, 11:24:12 AM

False dichotomy. Select the lemming that's closest to the cursor's center.

-- Simon

ccexplore · May 20, 2016, 11:47:39 AM

In the situation where multiple lemmings are within the cursor area and I need to be precise about which one gets selected (considering that I'd most likely already paused the game at this point), I think the most important thing for me would be having a clear indicator (eg. like an arrow drawn above the lemming's head) displayed pointing to the lemming that will be selected. Then the details of selection priority matters somewhat less to me.

I do suspect that some people may simply have become used to the existing priority system over their many hours of play, and thus will initially be a little thrown off by any new system. Absent evidence that a new system offers such overwhelming new advantages as to worth retraining oneself for, it may be reason enough to keep the old existing behavior as an option.

namida · May 20, 2016, 11:49:27 AM

For the most part, the changes to the priority code are fine; it's just this one detail I'm not so fond of.

Proxima · May 20, 2016, 11:53:55 AM

I don't like the idea that selection is dependent on finicky mouse placement. Either first out or last out, and have a priority invert to select the other.

As I haven't played very much, I'm not sure which of the two I favour -- all that comes to mind is the 99% solution on Tricky 23, which is really precise and fiddly on old Lemmix, because you need to select the first lemming out when he's among the crowd, so you have to ensure he is the only lemming under the cursor. (Of course, this is easier in NeoLemmix regardless of the priority system, since you can highlight him in advance.) I suppose that wanting to select the second, third or fourth in a line at RR 99 is fairly common (especially to make a blocker to split off a specific number of workers) so I agree with IchoTolot that this should be easy to do.

ccexplore · May 20, 2016, 12:11:59 PM

Quote from: Proxima on May 20, 2016, 11:53:55 AMI suppose that wanting to select the second, third or fourth in a line at RR 99 is fairly common (especially to make a blocker to split off a specific number of workers)

This is precisely the scenario I have in mind that I'm proposing to have a clear, continually updated arrow pointing to the lemming that will be selected as you move the cursor around. In traditional Lemmix, even when I know the priority system, it's rarely possible for me to just go by eye in that scenario. Instead I'm often left with the terrible option of having to find the cursor position where the displayed "number of lemmings under cursor" count changes, as a way to help determine the cursor placement to select the lemming I want. And that sometimes don't even work (the count may stay the same as the cursor moves off one lemming on one side but onto another lemming on the other side), and then you are effectively forced to trial and error via framestepping backwards to get the desired result.

It's possible that Simon's proposal may suffice for this scenario though, it's worth a test.

ccexplore · May 20, 2016, 12:16:04 PM

The Tricky 23 solution is an interesting case where indeed, prioritizing the earlier lemming out would've made things a lot easier. But I'm guessing you can probably come up with other cases where it's the opposite. In the end, having additional selection options (like highlighting in advance) is probably the better way to deal with those tricky cases anyway.

Nepster · May 20, 2016, 04:05:09 PM

The change to prioritizing early spawned lemmings was unintended, i.e. just a mistake by myself. I totally agree that the few situations like Tricky 23 where this is an advantage, don't outweight the disadvantage that all players are currently used to the other way, in my opinion.

But the other two suggestions are certainly worth considering. As it shouldn't be too difficult to code, I plan to try out prioritizing centered lemmings in the next experimental version. If it doesn't pull it's weight, it's a simple thing to go back to "prioritize newly spawned lemmings".
Regarding automatically highlighting selected lemmings: I am currently not sure whether I would prefer an arrow over the selected lemming (like the current hightlightning option), or that the selected lemming is recolored in a certain way. Maybe recoloring is more precise?

Another change I strongly consider is to always strongly deprioritize walker lemmings, simply because of the existance of the "only select walker" hotkey. This way players might have to press the hotkey slightly more often, but have in these cases a bigger choice of lemmings they can select.

@IchoTolot: I am against adding more options to experimental versions, because then players just opt out of using the new stuff instead of positing rants here and let us know that something is amiss. Of course once the next official NeoLemmix version is almost finished, we may certainly decide to add new options (e.g. to play with/without the shadows, ...) if opinions differ enough between players.