[SOME CHANGES] [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Sides of levels?

[IchoTolot]

Ok, I looked over the "breaking levels" situation in my case and the result is:

Deadly edges aren't really a big problem for existing levels, but.........a deadly ceiling would shake up the existing level world.

In my case I would have to change 4 levels in Reunion + Pimolems in case of deadly edges. Only 3 of them, because they really use the ege (the other one just for user-friendlyness).

A deadly ceiling would pretty much mean hours and hours of work, because of searching all over and making mostly climber walls save again + replay fixing (big part is user-friendlyness here). Also some levels use holding pits which are restricted through the ceiling.
I've counted over 28 levels in Reunion alone that would need work to be done if the ceiling would be deadly.
Furthermore: A few levels have Lemmings walking nearly under the ceiling (worst case onlx 3 pixels of height visible of the Lemming). If the sensitiviy would be too high here even more work would be created.

So all in all, even if I find the solid sides more logical (not more user-friendly)... I could live with deadly edges, but I have to strictly veto against a deadly ceiling
I must say the arguments for those deadly edges are good and yes even if they are unnatural to me they can make sense!
The ceiling is prob the most logical side to be solid in the first place and I highly suggest that it stays solid! (for the sake of the existing content)

[Simon]

Thanks for the exhaustive checks!

I haven't meditated yet about open edges, closed ceiling. It sounds viable, especially in light of many levels relying on the closed ceiling. Let's meet on Saturday and take a detailed look.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

I like this idea, but maybe in some tilesets it can look kinda unusual ("Outdoor" or "Dirt" with laser beams ). Maybe match the color of the tileset (or builders) with them.

EDIT: Maybe the deadly edges option adds 8 pixels of map to each side and puts a laser beam in there automatically -----> lesser hassel for designers

Adding 8 pixels ouside the level area completely unnecessarily turns lots of levels into ones with vertical scrolling. Adding them inside reduces the level area. So a big NO to the suggestion in the edit.
And I would be careful to match the colors to the style: E.g. this made the pickup-skills very hard to distinguish in the rock style.

My Feeling: open edges > steel > electric fence.
[...]
Once again. The edges aren't an electric fence. When edges are deadly, the lemmings get lost in the void outside of the level. The edges do as little as possible!

Interesting that you care so much more about the fluff explanations than about the actual game mechanics. I agree that thinking about the edges as an electric fence is unnatural, gut game-wise the only difference is whether the burning animation is displayed or not.
I prefer open edges as well, but ultimately it is pretty irrelevant to me how the death of a lemming is displayed, as long as the cause is clear.

The per-level option is not as bad as it is now, should the boundaries get visual hints.

What visual hints do you propose?
a) Do colored edges of the minimap suffice in your opinion (as I suggested some posts ago)?
b) Do you want visual hints directly in the level screen? If yes, then how does this differ from placing laser traps at the border of the level?

I could live with deadly edges, but I have to strictly veto against a deadly ceiling

I could live with a solid ceiling as well. Solid ceilings tend to create far less backroutes than solid edges, so turning deadly ceilings solid will not break many levels.
From a purely game mechanics point of view, this might work pretty well. However the explanation of this behavior would become even more problematic: Consider a dirt level. Why should the (empty) sky be solid, but not the edges?
Additionally it still does not solve the issue how to tell the player which sides are deadly and which are solid.

[IchoTolot]

I could live with a solid ceiling as well. Solid ceilings tend to create far less backroutes than solid edges, so turning deadly ceilings solid will not break many levels.
From a purely game mechanics point of view, this might work pretty well. However the explanation of this behavior would become even more problematic: Consider a dirt level. Why should the (empty) sky be solid, but not the edges?
Additionally it still does not solve the issue how to tell the player which sides are deadly and which are solid.

Idea that addreses 2 problems:

Make the minimap more useful + addressing the player with the status of the edges

The outer frame of the minimap could be colored: Red (+ maybe with skulls) = deadly edge     steel (or maybe black/yellow construction colors) = solid edge

Edit: Combine this with a level in the Introduction pack that uses the edges/ceiling + entry in the manual
        Explanation wise in dirt: We've got rodents in space, the medieval times, factories.....   not everything is 100% logical here

[namida]

It sounds like, mechanics-wise at least (explanation-wise can be "because that's how it is" if it needs to), we're mostly in agreement that the top should remain solid, and the bottom should remain deadly.

The sides aren't quite so universal, but it doesn't seem that too many levels would be affected by a change. Off the top of my head, I can think of that "In The Frenz-zone" (which has been now removed from LPIII) uses an electric object down one side, this was in response to level resizability rather than the edge mechanics in and of themself, but it's still due to wanting a deadly edge (without empty space on the side of the level, now that that was no longer required) in that one case. On the other hand, some other levels would be negatively impacted by it, most notably LP Omega's "The Final Tower" which, while an edge-free solution is possible, it can be a lot trickier than using the edges; and it may also make 100% impossible.

I had been thinking about the idea of clearly-indicated per level options of "wrap", "deadly" or "solid", which can be set for each edge (obviously, "wrap" would have to be set on both opposing sides). But I'm not sure how I feel about doing that...

[Minim]

I don't think "wrap" would work for the sides. Otherwise players may discover backroutes if wrap was kept on, and thus the editor having to waste time modifying the backrouted level. I see LPIV's Ten-Lem Mission as a prime example.

I personally like the idea of keeping the sides and the ceiling solid, just because I thought it would be cruel for lemmings to die just because they reached the edge or the top of the level; but as this topic is fairly controversial, I won't go further than that.

[Proxima]

It sounds like, mechanics-wise at least (explanation-wise can be "because that's how it is" if it needs to), we're mostly in agreement that the top should remain solid, and the bottom should remain deadly.

That seems rather premature: only IchoTolot has said the top should remain solid; Simon and Nepster have said they could live with it but don't prefer it.

I'm definitely in favour of deadly bottom and lateral sides: the main reason I dislike solid sides is that it allows the player to do silly things like this (13:00 in the linked video). I don't feel as strongly about the ceiling, because it doesn't let you do strange-looking things like that, but at the same time I have an intuitive feeling that if the sides are deadly because the lemming heads out of the level area and is lost to your control, the ceiling should be too. Then again, the idea of keeping the option available, and using the sides of the minimap to indicate which is applicable, seems reasonable.

[607]

I don't think we'll agree on this, so maybe providing both options would indeed be the best "solution".

[IchoTolot]

I don't think we'll agree on this, so maybe providing both options would indeed be the best "solution".

Too much options would create high inconsistancy and confusion for the player.

Regardless of the solid/deadly discussion a solution must be found to the "how to tell the player" problem. May it be the minimap frame or even around the play area.

The more i think of it and going through all the levels ----- deadly left/right sides seem more beneficial to me.     
Most of the time I just had to make them save from abusal (backroute prevention) and nearly never implememted them in the level. Hell I even went this far today and made my packs independent from the solid edges.
And none of my single levels used them as well.
 
The ceiling is different..i always used it as a limitation for climbers or even holding pits and there would be a lot of climable walls which would be deadly if the players aren't very carefully with their climbers.

However, Simon and I are meeting up this saturday and have another talk and I show him the situatiuon (together with some lix testing and bolognese)

[ccexplore]

the main reason I dislike solid sides is that it allows the player to do silly things like this (13:00 in the linked video).

But why would that be specifically any sillier than walkers turning around?  I would assert that those who want solid lateral sides not only wouldn't find the behavior silly, but actually very much expect that behavior, as otherwise the solidity of lateral sides won't actually serve much purpose solution-wise.

I do agree that solid sides mechanics are more proned to creating backroutes.  I don't think anyone can dispute that part--a lemming that gets killed typically doesn't help enable additional solution routes to a level.

we're mostly in agreement that the top should remain solid

If we're considering making the lateral sides' behaviors be adjustable per-level, I feel like so should the top.  It's the bottom edge that I think is the only one we can say people are truly in agreement, and that's mainly thanks to the role of gravity setting expectations (expectations that really only works because the game currently doesn't offer the ability to change a lemming's direction of gravity).

[namida]

Obviously, most users are already familiar with the solid-edge behaviour. Nepster's latest experimental version in this post has a deadly sides behaviour; please try this out if you haven't already.

[mobius]

A deadly ceiling would pretty much mean hours and hours of work, because of searching all over and making mostly climber walls save again + replay fixing (big part is user-friendlyness here). Also some levels use holding pits which are restricted through the ceiling.
I've counted over 28 levels in Reunion alone that would need work to be done if the ceiling would be deadly.
Furthermore: A few levels have Lemmings walking nearly under the ceiling (worst case onlx 3 pixels of height visible of the Lemming). If the sensitiviy would be too high here even more work would be created.

So all in all, even if I find the solid sides more logical (not more user-friendly)... I could live with deadly edges, but I have to strictly veto against a deadly ceiling
I must say the arguments for those deadly edges are good and yes even if they are unnatural to me they can make sense!
The ceiling is prob the most logical side to be solid in the first place and I highly suggest that it stays solid! (for the sake of the existing content)

I'm very surprised to hear this; I wouldn't expect as much problems with the ceiling as with the sides.
When you reference holding pits which are restricted through the ceiling; do you mean a pit that reaches the ceiling and the ceiling stops the climbers? I think of maybe one PimoLems level like this... When referring to lemmings walking near the ceiling, so that most of their body is not visible, I would agree that I think whether solid or not, this should be allowed, but I say I personally don't like a level mandating this kind of thing in the first place [might I reference a certain level called Technoir...]

I would vote for letting all this be on option, simply for the benefit of existing levels.

[namida]

I would vote for letting all this be on option, simply for the benefit of existing levels.

I know I considered the possibility of an option in the past, but at this point, I'm going to say an absolute no to that. Currently, the standard behaviour is that the sides (except the bottom) are solid; some authors have wanted deadly sides bad enough that they use the Deadly Sides gimmick on all their levels. With gimmicks being removed, it's the best time - and perhaps the only really suitable time - to discuss whether the edge behaviour should be changed. But ultimately - whatever it ends up being, it will be consistent across every level.

[IchoTolot]

I'm very surprised to hear this; I wouldn't expect as much problems with the ceiling as with the sides.
When you reference holding pits which are restricted through the ceiling; do you mean a pit that reaches the ceiling and the ceiling stops the climbers? I think of maybe one PimoLems level like this... When referring to lemmings walking near the ceiling, so that most of their body is not visible, I would agree that I think whether solid or not, this should be allowed, but I say I personally don't like a level mandating this kind of thing in the first place [might I reference a certain level called Technoir...]

I would vote for letting all this be on option, simply for the benefit of existing levels.

Mostly it are climber walls, but a lot of them and I mean even the walls which are not needed, but could cause the player trouble, because I don't want to punish the player for using a climber ever so slightly different especially in the early ranks.

Obviously I vote for deadly, as it prevents backroutes from happening + doesn't make it nessesary to stratch out a level as much to keep the player from abusing the walls + using the sides actively in a intended solution is kinda dirty.
But here I have to say even with deadly walls they should not actively be used as a "deadly wall" as I mentioned in another thread. They should interfere as little as possible in a level. If the player tries to build a bridge out of the main area they should still punish him, but using them to compress the level size to a minimum is not the correct way here I think.

Also making your levels independent from the solid sides isn't much work I can assure you, möbius 

Example from "Return of the tribes" currently the sides are solid, but as I know Nepster this will change:


Here sth like a little water pit left and right would indicate directly that the climber cannot go to the sides, instead of relying on the deadly sides. This would make the level slightly bigger, but I think it is worth it.

And now an example from my single levels to show the opposite case:


Here I originally planned to use the solid side, but Simon convinced me that a steel wall is much more honest.

This is still one of the most inconsistant behaviors across all Lemnming games and as a designer you should not rely on them regulary as part of the solution.

I originally wanted to make a "level design" topic about the not using the sides stuff and I still may do so, but for now this should work

[Dullstar]

Originally I was leaning towards solid sides, but I think it would be better to make them deadly.  If you want solid sides, it's not difficult to put steel on the sides of the level and comes with the added bonus of not being misleading.

HOWEVER, I think the ceiling should be solid.