Add cloners to initial count of lems

[Nepster]

Edit Simon: This topic belongs to a series of related ones:

• Save requirement: show during play
• Required-saved, out+hatch: display during game
• Add cloners to initial count of lems (this one)

Two questions, because I just played a cloner level:

1) If we display "required - saved / out + hatch" how do we count cloner skills? My intuition says: "required - saved / out + hatch + cloners".

2) Assume that at the end of the level when all lemmings are either saved or dead, a player has a few cloner skills left. Should these be automatically added to the saved count?
Pro: If I don't need cloners, I tend to forget to assign them while playing. More than once this resulted in me failing a level only due to this. I found this quite annoying.
Contra: Currently one may create levls, where the main problem is turning around cloned lemmings.

I realize apparently no one else considers this a problem but I do: I wish for a volume control of some kind because I think the default volume of both sound and music is way too high.

You are certainly not the only one who consideres this a problem. But it is already on the list of changes for NeoLemmix V2.

PS: Perhaps the current discussion should be moved to a thread in the NeoLemmix V2 subboard, because it mainly belongs there?

[mobius]

I thought we already had a discussion on the menu bar and a decision was made...?

Take my commments with a grain of salt because I haven't played Lemmings in a while and I haven't played many cloner levels.

1) If we display "required - saved / out + hatch" how do we count cloner skills? My intuition says: "required - saved / out + hatch + cloners".

2) Assume that at the end of the level when all lemmings are either saved or dead, a player has a few cloner skills left. Should these be automatically added to the saved count?
Pro: If I don't need cloners, I tend to forget to assign them while playing. More than once this resulted in me failing a level only due to this. I found this quite annoying.
Contra: Currently one may create levls, where the main problem is turning around cloned lemmings.

1) My intuition doesn't say to put anything to do with cloners in the menu bar... Of course, keep in mind I haven't played a ton of cloner levels and I haven't yet considered play with a level involving a LOT of cloners, but what I did play I never had much of a problem considering the count of lemmings.

2) I disagree with this, sounds unessesary and confusing.  I don't understand your example; if you didn't need the cloners, why did the level fail [as a result of not assigning them?]
Maybe my opinion is biased; as I think the only level I designed with cloners is just that; turning them around and they [are supposed to] die.

In any case; since cloners may die, I don't think the ultimate save/lem counts counters should reflect any of the skills available.


As I've said before: I think adding too many things to the counters in the menu bar like these suggestions makes it very confusing.

As it currently is, yes it could be improved, but overall it's not that terrible. I've personally never been very bothered at all by the info displayed here.
When I'm playing a puzzling level I'm usually planning everything out in my head and so I've already kept track of lemmings out/dead etc, and I don't even need the menu at all.
I'm only comparing this to Lix because Simon suggests a change similar to Lix; One thing I dislike about Lixes interface is that the lettering is smaller and there is more of it; means more difficult to read; particularly in tense situations, not often a case in single play, but sometimes.

My vote would be only to add: the requirement/total perhaps somewhere like in the menu bar [which I would always see because I would never used full screen, I really don't like full screen much at all and don't see it's appeal in a game like Lemmings] or a place like the empty space on the left while not being occupied by the cursor/hover over Lemming/info.

[Simon]

1) If we display "required - saved / out + hatch" how do we count cloner skills? My intuition says: "required - saved / out + hatch + cloners".

1) Same gut reaction, add cloners. But I haven't thought deeply about it. The main idea is to count how many you may still lose, so adding cloners seems correct. I believe they should also be counted with the "number of lemmings:" on the preview.

Downside: If it shows 3 lems out, and you find only 2 on the map, how fast do you realize that he missing lem out comes from the skill? Is this situation likely to run into, after saving most of the horde?

2) [...] cloner skills left. Should these be automatically added to the saved count?

2) Gut reaction: No, don't add, but fix the underlying UI problem that makes 2) a problem in the first place.

The UI problem is that you cannot edit the current solution after the level has ended automatically. If you start the level afresh, all your replay data is gone. The only workaround is to save it to a file immediately before clicking anything out of habit, restart level, reload replay from file. Since the issue 2) seems to come up every once in a while, this workaround is impractical.

Depending on what happens with this UI problem, I'd suggest different solutions for 2). The player should always be able to easily score Cloners near the exit, even if the game has ended.



After thinking some more: My combined idea of 1) add cloners, 2) don't score cloners, is idiotic. We'd end up with a level void of lemmings, but displaying lems left equal to cloner skill count left. This idea implies they should be scored automatically. Or not be counted with the out count. Whargh.

Maybe the level must not terminate until all cloner skills have been applied, or the level has already been won without them. Then the time limit shouldn't terminate the level either, for there exist people like me who mash the time-skipping key until the level terminates after the crowd has arrived.

Hnn yeah, why is this all in one thread, instead of one for the panel issue? I lack mod rights to separate the posts appropriately...

I want to meet Nepster in real life someday. :-]

One thing I dislike about Lixes interface is that the lettering is smaller and there is more of it; means more difficult to read; particularly in tense situations, not often a case in single play, but sometimes.

Print is too small: This is an interplay of small print and low-contrast choice of colors. I'm hesitant to use full white to not distract from the skill counts. On the other hand, I hate low contrast print. It's concerning.

I'd suggest you wait for the D port in a few months, once that has reasonably testable singleplayer. That will support arbitrary windowed resolutions without looking uglily scaled. Let's see whether the text will be still hard to read there.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

The current discussion in relation to displaying total lemmings in some form has been requested strongly enough, and (once a method is decided on) probably simple enough, that it can go in a minor update.

This is a relatively big change for players, so better make it together with the other changes in V2. As möbius says, the current system can be improved, but isn't terrible.

As I've said before: I think adding too many things to the counters in the menu bar like these suggestions makes it very confusing.

First of all, the two numbers "required - saved" and "out + hatch + cloners" would replace the current "IN" and "OUT" count. So there would still be two numbers displayed, just with a different meaning. But I agree that these numbers should have an intuitive meaning to the player and not be too artificial.

2) [...] I don't understand your example; if you didn't need the cloners, why did the level fail [as a result of not assigning them?]

Assume you have a level with 7 lemmings coming out of the hatch and having 3 cloner skills. Then after assigning the cloner skills you have 10 lemmings, so a save requirement of 9 lemmings makes sense (and is possible within NeoLemmix). Now assume I have a "solution" saving all lemmings that come out of the hatch, but does not need any cloners. Then only 7 lemmings hop into the exit, while 9 are required ==> I fail the level even though I saved 100% of the lemmings coming out of the hatch.

I believe they should also be counted with the "number of lemmings:" on the preview.
Downside: If it shows 3 lems out, and you find only 2 on the map, how fast do you realize that he missing lem out comes from the skill? Is this situation likely to run into, after saving most of the horde?

Good points. I would probably need some time to realize that the cloner is the reason, but at least I would be alerted that I missed something.

The UI problem is that you cannot edit the current solution after the level has ended automatically. ...

Regardless of how we solve the cloner issue, adding the possibility to directly replay the current solution from the result screen would be a valuable feature (especially on failed attempts).

The player should always be able to easily score Cloners near the exit, even if the game has ended.

Yes, forcing level creators to allow saving cloned lemmings near the exit would be a solution, but I hesitate to put such a restriction on all level designers.

Maybe the level must not terminate until all cloner skills have been applied, or the level has already been won without them. Then the time limit shouldn't terminate the level either,

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. What should the last lemming do when arriving at the exit? Walking by, standing around, or...? If you ignore time limits until all cloners are used, then players may cheat the time limit by deliberately not assigning cloners and it doesn't help to save the last cloned lemming anyway.

I want to meet Nepster in real life someday. :-]

Yes, we should organize a meeting someday, probably in Göttingen to include IchoTolot. So let me first check a few things tomorrow. I'll write a PM.

[Simon]

current system can be improved, but isn't terrible.

No, it is terrible. I have compared it to making all exits invisible during play, showing them only during preview.

Agree with most other things.

The player should always be able to easily score Cloners near the exit, even if the game has ended.

Yes, forcing level creators to allow saving cloned lemmings near the exit would be a solution, but I hesitate to put such a restriction on all level designers.

Hmm, I haven't been clear. What I meant: If possible at all by the level design, the game should allow going back from results screen to play, and applying the missing cloners. No burden put on level designers.

Maybe the level must not terminate until all cloner skills have been applied, or the level has already been won without them. Then the time limit shouldn't terminate the level either,

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. What should the last lemming do when arriving at the exit? Walking by, standing around, or...? If you ignore time limits until all cloners are used, then players may cheat the time limit by deliberately not assigning cloners and it doesn't help to save the last cloned lemming anyway.

The last lemming should exit normally. The idea here is that LemGame doesn't terminate. In other words, the results screen isn't yet shown. Reason: There is still something to be done, revert and assign cloners, if that is enough to win.

Likewise, in the above setting, when time runs out, LemGame shouldn't terminate, to allow reversion.

The idea hinges on the current problem that (leaving results screen by any means kills your replay). Fixing that is more important than special-casing the termination of LemGame.

I want to meet Nepster in real life someday. :-]

Yes, we should organize a meeting someday, probably in Göttingen to include IchoTolot. So let me first check a few things tomorrow. I'll write a PM.

Sure, sure. Icho wants to get a laptop some time in the new year, that will make for good meetings. I can host one person in my little apartment;

-- Simon

[Nepster]

No, it is terrible. I have compared it to making all exits invisible during play, showing them only during preview.

...and people came and even created levels with hidden/invisible exits .

The idea hinges on the current problem that (leaving results screen by any means kills your replay). Fixing that is more important than special-casing the termination of LemGame.

Totally agree with this.
And thanks for the clarifications. I still see problems with them, but perhaps it is best to hear first namida's thoughts on adding "go directly from results screen to replaying the level".

After thinking some more: My combined idea of 1) add cloners, 2) don't score cloners, is idiotic. We'd end up with a level void of lemmings, but displaying lems left equal to cloner skill count left. This idea implies they should be scored automatically. Or not be counted with the out count. Whargh.

Or perhaps this discrepancy can be explained by a message in the results screen like "Perhaps assign all cloners next time? Hit hotkey XYZ to replay your solution."

[mobius]

Assume you have a level with 7 lemmings coming out of the hatch and having 3 cloner skills. Then after assigning the cloner skills you have 10 lemmings, so a save requirement of 9 lemmings makes sense (and is possible within NeoLemmix). Now assume I have a "solution" saving all lemmings that come out of the hatch, but does not need any cloners. Then only 7 lemmings hop into the exit, while 9 are required ==> I fail the level even though I saved 100% of the lemmings coming out of the hatch.

okay [duh, I should've realized]
I still however, do not see how this as much of a problem.
I mean, come on, The player must look at the skill bar and they would see the cloners, unless their blind... Plus, I don't use percentages; however this is a good argument for getting rid of percentages altogether. Why complicate matters?

But anyways, is this really that much of a problem? I'm not really sure what the discussion is about hoever; Are we talking about a complicated problem of using cloners that then died or something else? Or simply not seeing that you have the cloner skill available to you? If it's the latter I find the argument silly. If you need, I can explain why...

In any case, unless I'm missing something isn't there an inerrant problem here with enforcing that skill counts be injected into the scoring like this?

Example; what if I want to add cloners to the level but make them not nessecary to use; or [I realize this would probably be difficult/may impossible with current game mechanics but never-the-less] have them as a decoy and they can't be used/won't help you solve the level in any way.
Or, like a level I actually made, use cloners but all cloned lemming [are supposed to] die. Then this would not effect the final score in regards to the cloners, the scoring could be displayed exactly the same as a game without cloners.


--------
On the restarting/automatically replaying; I strongly want there to be at least some option here. Like right click/left click or visible buttons on screen to restart or replay. I DON'T like always automatically replaying. For one thing, if I want to replay, this usually happens when I realize the level is cooked long before or shortly before it ends so I just press R, and skip the whole end screen process [which is very nice]. While if I let the level end and go to the end screen, I usually don't want to replay it. I'm annoyed at the programs like Cheapo and Lix when they always replay when I don't want to replay.
Maybe this is only my preference; if that's the case than the option would be nice; simply an option to turn on or off auto-replay like in Lix.

[Nepster]

I still however, do not see how this as much of a problem.
I mean, come on, The player must look at the skill bar and they would see the cloners, unless their blind... Plus, I don't use percentages; however this is a good argument for getting rid of percentages altogether. Why complicate matters?

But anyways, is this really that much of a problem? I'm not really sure what the discussion is about hoever; Are we talking about a complicated problem of using cloners that then died or something else? Or simply not seeing that you have the cloner skill available to you? If it's the latter I find the argument silly. If you need, I can explain why...

The problem is, that cloners are the only skill you are forced to use up. Depending on the playstyle, one might think of doing this (if one counts the lemmings saved, which depends on using cloners) or not (if one counts the lemmings killed, which does not depend on using cloners).
If I am the only one, who constantly forgets using cloners to just create more lemmings, then nothing needs to be changed (except my solutions ).

In any case, unless I'm missing something isn't there an inerrant problem here with enforcing that skill counts be injected into the scoring like this?

If you are talking about adding remaining cloner skills to the final saved score, then: Oops , you are totally correct. If a level has one lemming coming out of the hatch, 9 cloner skills and a save requirement of 5 lemmings, then the player should certainly not be able to solve the level just by nuking straight away.

On the restarting/automatically replaying; I strongly want there to be at least some option here.

Yes, I agree with that. I thought about enabling the hotkey for replaying the level ("R" or "F1" or whatever) not only during the actual level, but as well on the results screen.

For one thing, if I want to replay, this usually happens when I realize the level is cooked long before or shortly before it ends so I just press R, and skip the whole end screen process [which is very nice]. While if I let the level end and go to the end screen, I usually don't want to replay it.

Sorry, different experience here: I frequently arrive at the results screen, because I (mistakenly) think I solved the level for one reason or another. And whether I want to replay the level and/or my solution, very strongly correlates with the results screen giving a success or a failure message.

And here just one more random thought:
What do you think of automatically assigning all remaining cloner skills one frame before the final lemming exits the level?

[mobius]

for some reason I had a hard time explaining myself and wording this post so apologies if it's really difficult to understand

The problem is, that cloners are the only skill you are forced to use up. Depending on the playstyle, one might think of doing this (if one counts the lemmings saved, which depends on using cloners) or not (if one counts the lemmings killed, which does not depend on using cloners).
If I am the only one, who constantly forgets using cloners to just create more lemmings, then nothing needs to be changed (except my solutions ).

I don't see how/why you would be forced to always use all the cloners available.
Like my example, you can have a level with cloners that are not necessary to be used? Granted; like I said, while certain situations may be impossible or difficult to create... Another example is the level I made in which all the cloners used must die, so the count would essentially be the same as if the cloners didn't exist at all. If we went to the trouble of making the counts factor in cloner skills we'd also then have to have further options to account for situations like these.

In any case, unless I'm missing something isn't there an inerrant problem here with enforcing that skill counts be injected into the scoring like this?

If you are talking about adding remaining cloner skills to the final saved score, then: Oops , you are totally correct. If a level has one lemming coming out of the hatch, 9 cloner skills and a save requirement of 5 lemmings, then the player should certainly not be able to solve the level just by nuking straight away.
[/quote]

What I was really referring to was the above. Personally I haven't had any irritating problems with this, but as I've said before; I have not played an abundant amount of cloner levels so I may not be the best person to ask.

For one thing, if I want to replay, this usually happens when I realize the level is cooked long before or shortly before it ends so I just press R, and skip the whole end screen process [which is very nice]. While if I let the level end and go to the end screen, I usually don't want to replay it.

Sorry, different experience here: I frequently arrive at the results screen, because I (mistakenly) think I solved the level for one reason or another. And whether I want to replay the level and/or my solution, very strongly correlates with the results screen giving a success or a failure message.
[/quote]
I usually think both ways: of how many saved and how many I can lose. But when I see the cloners I immediately factor this into my count. I can, however see how this could get complicated if say there are 50 Lems, a requirement of 45, and 5 cloners, but it's a given that over 5 lems must die. Let's say 10 lems must die but with the cloners you can make the comeback to 45. But I still am against factoring cloners, or ANY skill for that matter into the count. It would make things much more complicated in unforseen ways I think.
OH: here's a good example. Like how I personally hate the way zombies are currently calculated. Namida's already said he's planning to adjust this, so I'm not trying to sound angry. Currently either on the game screen or menu screen [can't remember which] zombie's are figured into the actual Lem count. Here's why I think it's totally confusing: first of all they are not "Lemmings" they should be treated as an enemy, a separate game element. The level will say 100 lemmings on the menu, but when level starts only 96 lemmings come out because there are four zombie's.  This is confusing, and I think having the cloner count be factored this way would be similar. You'd start with the information on the menu screen thinking one thing but then once the level begins and you see the cloners you have to readjust your thinking?... I'm not really sure.

it's a little off-topic but when I tried really hard to make levels using cloners and the other new skills I found it very difficult. But that's probably me just not having ideas...

And here just one more random thought:
What do you think of automatically assigning all remaining cloner skills one frame before the final lemming exits the level?

I'm strongly opposed to that. It really doesn't make any sense to me at all; it simultanously makes the game easier/a little pointless by making the player's job more useless and takes control away from the player. But how would this benefit any situation anyway? That's assuming that it's alright for the cloners to be used at the end.
But this brings up an interesting point; so far, all the cloner levels I've played MAY be able to be played in this exact way as you described. But that's certainlty not the way it has to be. Again, in my own level's example. The cloners must be used at a critical point in the level [not at the end, because they need to pick up pick-skills...]. Using them at the very end wouldn't work.

Wait a minute... cloners turn around, so how would that even work for them to exit? I'm sorry I don't think I understand this at all. I ran out of time I wanted to explain myself better  but have to go.

[Nepster]

OK, let me try to be clearer:

Why should cloner skills be included in the lemming count?
Because currently the preview screen does give the player a wrong impression! Let us consider two examples:
1) The example you mentioned: 50 lemmings out of the hatch, 5 cloners and a save requirement of 45 lemmings. Given the current info on the preview screen I expect that only 5 lemmings may die. But in fact even 10 lemmings may die, so once the level starts I need to adjust my count due to the existence of cloners - precisely the thing you wanted to avoid.
All this stays true, if the same solution would work with 55 lemmings in the hatch and no cloner (i.e. the case, where one does not need the cloners in the solution). And it stays true as well, if all five cloned lemmings are among the 10 lemmings that need to die. 
2) Consider the attached level: 5 lemmings coming out of the hatch, 5 cloners available and a save requirement of 10 lemmings. Then on the preview screen I have three options, what is displayed:
- Percentage ADJ: I have 5 lemmings and need 100% --> Misleading information.
- Percentage ON: I have 5 lemmings and need 200% --> How can I save more lemmings than I start with? Confusing.
- Percentage OFF: I have 5 lemmings and need to save 10 lemmings --> How can I save more lemmings than I start with? Confusing.
The point is: I do not start with 5 lemmings, but with 10 lemmings. Out of these 10 lemmings I can create 5 lemmings using the cloner skills whenever I want. But this does not change the fact, that I have 10 lemmings available. Again the current info on the preview screen does not allow me to compute the number of lemmings that may be killed, and is therefore misleading.
Summary: For the player to get the correct expectations, one needs to add the lemmings in the hatch, the preplaced lemmings and the cloner skills to get the correct number of available lemmings to display on the preview screen.

This is kind of the same argument as for the zombies you mentioned, but in the other direction: zombies/ghosts are currently counted as lemmings, though they are not available to the player - cloners are not counted, though they create lemmings that are available. Neither thing is good.

What do I mean by "forcing to use cloners"?
Consider now my replay: Using only one cloner, I created a save path from the hatch to the exit. So the level looks pretty much solved. However due to the save requirement of 10 lemmings, this is not the case! This level forces me to use the other 4 cloners as well.
Sure, if the save requirement would only be 6 lemmings, then I might omit assigning the other 4 cloners. But level designers usually expect one to use all cloners (because they use them in their own solution), so this happens only rarely.

If the level requires that I use a cloner already in the middle of the level, then everything is fine, regardless whether the cloned lemming dies or not. In this case none of the suggestions makes any difference, because the cloner skill is no longer available at the end of the level.

What is the idea behind my most recent suggestion?
Well, it should probably revised to
  If the last lemming exits, the save requirement is not yet reached and there are still cloners available, then one of them should be assigned on the last frame.
The point is: Under these circumstances, the player very likely does not want to end the level (because it is not yet solved), but wants to try to save some more of the cloned lemmings. So the aim of my suggestion is to avoid going to the result screen (with the failure), but to continue the game to give the player a second chance to save the (not yet created) cloned lemmings as well. The intention is basically the same as with Simon's " level must not terminate" suggestion.
As an example, let us again consider the attached replay. After the first cloned lemming and the first 4 lemmings from the hatch have reached the exit, there is only one lemming left, but still 4 cloner skills. As 5 more lemmings need to be saved, it is very likely a stupid mistake from the player (me) not to have the other cloner skills assigned earlier. So I should have assigned the cloner already at sometimes earlier and the game only tries to correct my mistake at the lastest possible moment.
This does not "take away control from the player", because it only changes things at the very last possible moment, but rather gives the player more control, because the player is given another chance to save lemmings. It does "make the game easier" only in the respect, that it catches one possible and obvious mistake a player may make, but doesn't do anything the player cannot do himself.
Finally, you question the benefits: If the newly created cloned lemming arrives at the exit without any further guidance (which is not automatic as you already noted), then this helps the player solving the level. If the cloned lemming cannot be saved, then this at least alerts the player that he needs to save a few more lemmings and therefore can either go backwards in time or start the replay from the very beginning. In any way, this is a better outcome than going to the results screen.

[mobius]

First: I downloaded the test level and here are my thoughts:

-first of all I had the new count-down option instead of original home count [I think that name is more descriptive than "relative in count".
I think I like this feature but I'm not sure yet, still can't say I have major problems with the original set up. anyways...

-I agree with most of your points except;
"requiring 10 lemmings when there is only 5 available" doesn't confuse me at all-- when I see that I know there is one obvious answer to this perdicament; this level must have cloners.

-I'll admit this test is skewed since I knew ahead of time it's about cloners but like I've said I have played a few of the cloner levels, some of the tutorials and others by namida at least [can't remember everything I've played]. And I don't remember being very confused. This test level was simple and nothing about it confused me what-so-ever.

-I know it's sort of off-topic but I would use this as a great argument to get rid of percentages entirely. I really don't see any benefit to them at all, or why the preference exists other than tradition. When they started Lemmings, the game had a large number of levels where the goal was to save MOST of the lemmings, a general number, so the percentage made more sense there.

-If you fail: the ending screen displays the same information that the starting screen does: you saved 6, you needed 10. There's still no confusion there for me.

-Ok with the zombie thing. But I explain below why I still disagree with this point.

Idk this just seems obvious to me and I guess we'll have to disagree with how confusing or non-confusing it is.



2.
-While watching the replay I never got the impression 'the level looks sovled'.

-I'm afraid to say anything like level designers except players to use all cloners, first off because this is still very new and standards haven't exactly been set yet. But you're right, in difficult levels usually most skills have to be used.

---One thing that [should] help is having the coutn and requirment displayed on screen like Simon keeps suggesting. Personally; the 10 out of 5 thing totally stands out to me, [it's a cloner level! Remember to save more than the total number or to add however many cloners there are to your count.]

-One reason I'm against this is because I think all the stats should be strict in what they refer to and not imply anything else; i.e. actions by the player, skills or other game elements. Why? Because it's easier to understand what that stat is in that case.

On the last thing [lol]; Apparently we have very different playing styles. I just don't seem to run into the same irritations as you or Simon. [While I have irritations that apparently nobody else does]
I do agree replaying a level over and over can be a pain if it's due to having to repeat steps from mistakes. This NEVER happens to me anymore [to any reasonable degree compared to say a Mario game] since the simple advent of replays and save states. It's no longer a matter of doing tedious work over and over again; we can skip all that and just redo the fun part.

quote:
The point is: Under these circumstances, the player very likely does not want to end the level (be cause it is not yet solved), but wants to try to save some more of the cloned lemmings.

-Is it really that much of a pain to restart and do it again? I'm sure Simon would say yes, I would not. I've played for example, you're level Devil's right hand, countless times. I can't remember how many times I played it over and over; often doing the same thing I did before not because I was forced to, I was frustratingly trying to discover something new. But it was never frustrating because it wasn't tedious. Since we have the replay system sometimes I'll make multiple replays for one level of different strategies while attempting to solve it. In this theoretical example; whether the level is hard or easy you still have the replay system so even if you fail the level and go to the result screen you can repay it [if automatic replays].

-This whole notion seems like a very odd thing to me, but since I have not yet tried it I can't say how bad/good it could be. But one thing to note is; why have the game auto-complete this task but no other task? Nothing else is handled this way and it seems awkward to me to have the game automatically do something like that. Maybe this comes from me who strongly dislikes all the little tool tips and features ins games like Zelda where you're hand is held through-out the whole game.

For me this is part of the enjoyment of the game. It's a very intricate game, and there is a lot to look for and account for. You're saying that missing details [a mistake of the player] should be somehow subverted by the game itself. But looking for those details is what I enjoy. But this doesn't even seem like something that for me, I've simply never even considered this a minor irritation. It's like if I kept failing a level because I never looked down and realized I had floaters... that's not the game's fault in any way.

Since I've already rambled on way too much I might as well bring this point up: I think we're getting really spoiled and lazy as gamers with all these handy features. I mean, come on, some of the suggestions (not just in this thread) are beginning to seem a little ridiculous to me. Yes, improvement is great and that's what's going on, but there is a balance to be had too. There can be such a thing as too much 'help', and that's when either; the game becomes too easy/simple OR the 'helpful' features become some complex they become cumbersome and actually a hindrance. Like others have pointed out; there are so many hotkeys now, new users may have difficult discovering/learning them. It took me a little while to figure out NeoLemmix's hotkeys.

I think  I don't think there's anything to argue about anymore; I just must disagree and that's  all there is to it. If I didn't understand something correctly; don't worry about it, I don't think I'll really find it a big deal if this system gets implemented anyway so whatever. So I'm probably done protesting [about cloners anyway]

[Nepster]

-first of all I had the new count-down option instead of original home count [I think that name is more descriptive than "relative in count".]
[...]
-I know it's sort of off-topic but I would use this as a great argument to get rid of percentages entirely. I really don't see any benefit to them at all, or why the preference exists other than tradition. When they started Lemmings, the game had a large number of levels where the goal was to save MOST of the lemmings, a general number, so the percentage made more sense there.

I never knew, that there already is a count-down option for saved lemmings. Perhaps this is already sufficient to reduce my confusion about assigning cloners.
@namida: You really need to advertise newly added options to NeoLemmix better!