Glitches in Lemmings (old thread)

[alfonz1986]

To be honest, the game would be such a pain in the ass without the steel glitch. For instance if you're bashing/digging a long way only to find there was a single pixel overlap with the steel and he stops dead. The game probably would have had worse reviews for frustration! Plus the fact it opens up all these interesting opportunities for us diehards.

[Yawg]

True, but steel glitches can also be the bane of level designers and players alike. For example, when a steel area doesn't align exactly over the steel and while it looks like you can bash right under/over it, the field actually extends beyond the graphical steel and your basher still stops.

Or when, no matter how you position your steel, the fact that it can be blown up/ bashed through makes it completely impossible to prevent back routes to your otherwise well-constructed level. I would personally like very much to some day create levels in a popular editor with perfected steel mechanics.

[Clam]

To be honest, the game would be such a pain in the ass without the steel glitch. For instance if you're bashing/digging a long way only to find there was a single pixel overlap with the steel and he stops dead.

In Lemmings 2, diggers can overlap steel slightly and they won't stop. The steel remains intact though, so you end up with a narrower tunnel rather than no tunnel at all.

True, but steel glitches can also be the bane of level designers and players alike. For example, when a steel area doesn't align exactly over the steel and while it looks like you can bash right under/over it, the field actually extends beyond the graphical steel and your basher still stops.

Yep, steel areas being separate from steel terrain is a PITA. Especially since the steel objects have to align with the 4x4 grids, whereas steel terrain doesn't (and in some cases, can't because of its dimensions).

I would personally like very much to some day create levels in a popular editor with perfected steel mechanics.

L++ has similar steel mechanics to Lemmings 2. And better still, you can play levels made in Lemmix without any changes. Other mechanics differences might cause problems in existing levels, but for now it's as good as you're going to get.

[ccexplore]

I would personally like very much to some day create levels in a popular editor with perfected steel mechanics.

L++ has similar steel mechanics to Lemmings 2. And better still, you can play levels made in Lemmix without any changes. Other mechanics differences might cause problems in existing levels, but for now it's as good as you're going to get.

As a quick if futile reminder, there's also Cheapo, which behaves similarly with regards to steel. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" /> Yes I know, no one seems to be using it anymore, and its levels and styles are not compatible with Lemmix or L++.  On the other hand, there're more existing levels out there created for Cheapo than L++.  Anyhoo...

[alfonz1986]

New glitch?

I observed something weird that happens with a climber when he reaches the top of a wall that has one overhanging pixel. Sometimes the climber is able to climb past the pixel, other times he hits his head and falls. I did some messing around with such a situation in Wild 11 and it seems that whether or not he falls depends on the height at which he started climbing. If u notice as the lemming climbs, he pulses up and down at a steady pace. Im guessing something to do with this cycle determines whether or not he climbs through.

Sounds like an interesting idea for a custom level  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

Heres a replay of what I found on Wild 11:

[geoo]

Yeah, I noticed this strange behaviour in a level of mine once where it ruined some attempts at the solution.
That glitch also works in reverse:
Assume you have a one-pixel gap (a horizontal gap, in this case) atop a wall and a ceiling above, while you'd expect the lemmings to always climb up, there are instances, depending on the climbing height again, where they don't. Here's a small sketch as for what I mean:

Code: [Select]

######## <-- ceiling
         <-- one-pixel gap
####
####     <-- you climb this wall
####


[alfonz1986]

I came across an interesting and rather efficient way to dig a crowd control pit into steel. Its requires 2 blockers, 2 diggers and a basher to free one of the blockers assuming ur wanting to save 100%. Also it works best when the lemmings are falling onto the steel either from the portal or a ledge so that they can walk through the blocker without being deflected.

I know there are other ways to dig pits in steel but I think this is the most elegant method I've come across, also with the highest success rate.

I've replayed two examples from Tricky 13 and Tricky 9.

Its a pretty solid start if ur going for the Tricky 9 100% no builder solution  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[namida]

I would say both of those phenomena fall under the category of obscure (or familiar, for some  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />) game mechanics.  For example, the digger+blocker combo simply takes advantage of the fact that a digger only needs one pixel under him to keep digging, and it can be on his extreme left or right (actually, the pixel doesn't even have to be under the digger of course; the "digger field" extends one pixel beyond his feet on both sides), whereas a blocker needs a couple pixels of terrain directly under his feet to remain a blocker.

The second "glitch" is similarly dependent on subtle (albeit probably intentional) game mechanics. If a digger has no terrain under him within his "field", he stops digging, and a second digger can create this situation quite easily.

Doubtless, however, these are both very useful mechanics for us level authors to take advantage of  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" />

The latter is hardly a new idea. Although I've found other (arguably much neater) solutions since, my original intended solution to To The End (From the LP+ DOS Project, and earlier, LP3 on Cheapo) used the dig-under-a-digger-to-stop-him trick very excessively.

[Minim]

Bump. I've discovered a new glitch while I was creating a new level for Holiday lemmings. I've brought the level here to show you along with a Lemmix replay too (This level has Christmas Graphics, so it's worth playing on the H93 version).

The glitch involves a lemming climbing up to the top and walking on the first time, but when there is a stair placed at the bottom of the floor he will then climb up and fall back down again when he reaches the top.

I wonder how this has happened.



Mod Edit: Restored attachments.

[ccexplore]

Um, take a look at a few posts above (reply #125), geoo described exactly the same thing you're seeing. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

I can tell you that if you make the pixel at (580,110) not terrain [the bottom-left corner pixel of the steel block right above the one you are climbing), the problem should go away.

Probably not worth explaining how it comes about, but basically, there are basically two things the game needs to check a climber for:

  1) whether it has reached the top of the wall, and therefore can start transitioning back to walking
  2) whether it hits its head on an overhang and should fall

You'd think that the game would do both things on each frame where movement occurs, but instead, it's more like during 4 animation frames it does #1 only, and then during the next 4 frames it does #2 only, and so forth.  And also it only changes the lemming's vertical y-position during either #1 or #2 only (forgot which one off top of my head), but before doing the "hits head" check.  The basic end result of this strange, incomprehensible order of processing is that, depending on height of climb, in some cases a climb would succeed despite an overhang, while at other times a "false overhang" like the one you have could still abort the climb.

What can I say, climber mechanics in Lemmings is full of strange behavior.  I believe the very first post of this thread already listed like 2 or 3 more well-known glitches about climbers......

[Gronkling]

Some lemmini glitches:

• Climbers climbing through terrain when stuck- Just like DOS but the the lemming rises faster
• Skipping 1 pixel gaps with miners- Same as DOS
• Giants leap - Same as DOS
• Bashing through arrows- Needs special requirements that I'm not sure on.
• Bashers stopping one pixel for the edge of terrain- Usually annoying but good for crowd control
• Building through one pixel walls
• When a blocker is placed just next to a wall and a climber climbs up it the climber gets pushed to the right.
             V-- Climber ends up here
         X <--Blocker
  ####
  ####<-- Climber climbs here
  ####
  ####
• Climbers randomly fall when they reach the top- Not sure what causes this
• Climbers get stuck with miners if you time it right - See the second level on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC6qIiTUWb4" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC6qIiTUWb4 (Starts at 1:42)
• Climbers are walkers for 1 frame if terrain is removed- Same as DOS
• Lemmini crashes if the climber glitch hits the ceiling of the level
• Miners turn around when they hit the edge of the level
• Terrain can be hidden of the side of the map
• Miners/Diggers can be stopped with a well timed blocker
• When a climber finishes climbing it floats as a walker for 1 frame where only a blocker can be assigned - Completely useless  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

I think that's all I know of in lemmini.

[ccexplore]

Cool!  It's amazing how many of the PC Lemmings glitches carry over in some form to Lemmini.  During Lemmini development I explicitly did not try to steer the developer into matching mechanics and glitches with PC Lemmings, since it already started off with hi-res graphics so it seems pointless to make it fully emulate PC Lemmings.  And yet so many familiar glitches in Lemming still carry over.  Wonder how many are be design (ie. maybe someone else wanted Lemmini to copy a glitch in PC Lemmings and the developer obliged?!?) and how many are by accident?

[Gronkling]

All the lemmini only glitches have a 99.9% chance of being unintentional. The others i'm not sure about. The giant leap glitch and climber glitch could be intentional because they are very useful for challenges and are quite strange meaning that the effects would be quite hard to program accidently. Those glitches are also extremely useful for challenges, levels and backrouting. Also there is no steel glitches in lemmini even though nearly all systems have it. This could show that glitches were not deliberately put in because they probably would have put in at least one steel glitch.
Oh well, it's still a mystery.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

Also another glitch/useful game mechanic that works in DOS and lemmini:

Skills can be assigned whilst the climber glitch is happening due to the fact that lemmings turn into walkers for one frame. This could be when they turn around so is probably not a glitch but it is extremely useful.

EDIT:

New extremely weird glitch:

Climbers skip over 1 pixel gaps sometimes. I can't really explain much so see the level and replay on the attachment. I'll research this some more.

More info: This is caused by the fact that once lemmings have finished climbing they are elavated by one pixel for one frame. As there is only one pixel for it to climb into it gets stuck in the terrain above the gap. It is near the edge so it gets pushed to the side and just starts climbing up the wall again. You can use other skills whilst the lemming is stuck in terrain for one frame. Using a blocker will make the lemming just go through the pixel gap and carry on as if it were a normal gap. This is basicaly the glitch I described in the above post which I said was 'Completely useless'. You can also use a basher which stops the lemming climbing but it stays facing the same way so it starts climbing the wall straight after it has finished falling. Finally you can use a miner but this it just makes it mine normally apart from the fact it is one pixel higher then it should normally be. Floaters and bombers can also be applied but you can use those anywhere anyway. Diggers and builders can not be used. If there is a ceiling above the pixel gap the lemming just falls down as if there was no pixel gap at all.