Architectural levels (hubbart)

[wihu61]

Dear levelmakers/players

We always try to build nice looking levels, because we believe that's part of the concept.
.
Just piling up elements doesn't look (and feel) right, and it seriously breaks down enthousiasm solving the levels offered... at least that's our experience....   http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sick.gif" alt=":sick:" title="Sick" class="smiley" />

We think it's nicer to upload 8 good looking and playable levels (we agree... it takes time) instead of 80 heaps of elements with a solution hidden in it somewhere, where the lucky click is needed", .
That's how we see it, you don't have to agree, just think about it. It would be nice if this game could go on and even grow a bit, but in this way I don't think it will.

A word from the designers:  http://www.javalemmings.com/DMA/AGaryLevel.htm

[ccexplore]

Dear levelmakers/players

We always try to build nice looking levels, because we believe that's part of the concept.
.
Just piling up elements doesn't look (and feel) right, and it seriously breaks down enthousiasm solving the levels offered... at least that's our experience....   http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sick.gif" alt=":sick:" title="Sick" class="smiley" />

We think it's better to upload 8 good looking and playable levels instead of 80 piles of elements with a solution hidden in it somewhere, where the lucky click is needed", though it takes much more time.
That's how we see it, think about it. It would be nice if this game could go on and even grow a bit.

Hi, we agree with the principles you're espousing.  But I think you come off as rather condescending in your post above.  I don't pretend to have looked at all the levelsets out there for Custom Lemmings but I would hardly characterized most of them as "just piling up elements".  To say so is just blatant insult to the hard work most level designers put in their own levels, whether or not you like the visual design in some of them.

And I don't know what exactly you have in mind when you say "a solution hidden in it somewhere where the lucky click is needed".  I think it's clear as a counterpoint that if you make the most visual stunning level, and then put the entrance trapdoor right next to the exit so that the lemmings just have to walk from point A to point B, that's hardly a good level even though there's (obviously) no "lucky click" or "hidden" involved.  To some extent, the level's solution needs to engage the player's mind a little (or a lot, depending on the level of difficulty you're aiming for) for it to be worth playing.  Otherwise you might as well just making a picture of the level in Paint and gaze as it.  And typically when you need to design a level around a solution (or solutions) you have in mind, that alone is enough of a constraint that it's simply impossible to merely "pile elements around" randomly.

It's of note that even in the official Lemmings game, different level designers have obviously different visual designs.  Some levels are very minimalistic ("Tightrope Cicy") while others are elaborate eye candy ("Lemming Drops"--just a randomly selected example).  Different people simply approach level design differently, and it's good to get a variety of levels of different design styles.  And a bad level will be a bad level no matter how much one tries to "dress it up" visually--good level requires both the level's visual design and puzzle design to be interesting.

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All that said, I'm sure the community looks forward to hubbart8 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> (though it's a mighty quiet community these days--when's the last time someone here played a new custom level?!? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />)

[wihu61]

Off course I am not speaking in general terms, there are many good levels in it.
And you know it hasn't anything to do with minimalistic or elaborate, that's a matter of preference I think.

But you said it yourself :"a good level requires both the level's visual design and puzzle design to be interesting"

Thanks for your response, and we'll see...  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />
btw, the picture below might be my next "Lemmings challenge"
Looking forward for some interesting, nicely built levels,

regards HW

[GigaLem]

Do you have one that lokks like sonic the hedgehog

[namida]

Giga, stfu, if you want a level that looks like Sonic, go make it yourself instead of once again expecting everyone else to do your work for you.

wihu61: It depends. A level looking good is always a good thing, but you need to take care not to make the level boring in the process. A level that looks fantastic, but is just a matter of build from one end to the other, won't impress many people. I'd much rather have a level that looks bad but is fun and/or challenging. Of course, if you can make a level that looks good AND is either fun or challenging, then that's best of all.

[geoo]

I don't quite get the notion of 'the lucky click'; if you mean precision, then I agree, though sometimes it is necessary evil for a certain elegant solution. I do however feel that most of the time it is of essence that the solution to the level is not plain obvious, but somewhat hidden.

I think we all agree in the end that there's importance to both looks and the solution, just each of us setting the importance between the two differently.

Sometimes, visual elegance also lies in the simplicity of the design; in fact, even some of your levels are of that type.
I think it's only a minority of custom levels that look really ugly.

That said, especially the second one of your preview levels looks amazing!

[GigaLem]

Giga, stfu, if you want a level that looks like Sonic, go make it yourself instead of once again expecting everyone else to do your work for you.

wihu61: It depends. A level looking good is always a good thing, but you need to take care not to make the level boring in the process. A level that looks fantastic, but is just a matter of build from one end to the other, won't impress many people. I'd much rather have a level that looks bad but is fun and/or challenging. Of course, if you can make a level that looks good AND is either fun or challenging, then that's best of all.

WOULD YOU LEAVE ME ALONE

[ccexplore]

I don't quite get the notion of 'the lucky click'

There's a lot in wihu61's "lecture" that I don't really get, to be honest.  He can blame his bad English all he likes, but I think it was simply unwise and distracting that he chose to advertise his levels by lecturing about level design.  If it were me I would simply let my levels speak for themselves.  A few screenshots alone would probably have attracted more attention (and more positive attention).  If he really must boast about his levels' amazing visual design (beyond what we can all plainly see from screenshots), it would've been simplier to just say something like "as you can see I've put a lot of work into how my levels look, thanks for your patience and feedback appreciated".

Custom levels for Lemmings 1 has a rather long history, and if you look through the variety of levels even just during the peak of CustLemm from what seems like ages ago, I think you'll find that there are much more diversity than what wihu61's misguided lecture would imply.  It sounded especially presumptious (though I'm sure he meant it in an entirely different way, right?) that wihu61 is trying to establish his philosophy as some way to "revive" interest in Custom Lemmings 1 levels--time will tell, but let's just say that right now I'm not exactly seeing a flock of newcomers as a direct result of wihu61 posting his new levels.

We think it's nicer to upload 8 good looking and playable levels (we agree... it takes time) instead of 80 heaps of elements with a solution hidden in it somewhere, where the lucky click is needed", .
That's how we see it, you don't have to agree, just think about it. It would be nice if this game could go on and even grow a bit, but in this way I don't think it will.

[wihu61]

When Bart is back from holiday, I hope we can present a nice package soon...

thanks for your comments/thoughts

btw, this might be another level, called "the easy level"

groeten en wellicht tot binnenkort...

 hw