[SUG] Sound Schemes

[WillLem]

Split from: Roadmap for CE 1.0

The most controversial thing I see here: Don't overload the player with 1000 sounds!#

I get the point, but you do exaggerate here. The proposal is to add 4 extra sounds (Assign Fail, -/+ RR, Jumper, Laserer), and pitch-shift the skill buttons.

With that said, I was aware for the potential for this to be controversial (hence the clams!), so I'm more than happy to make these optional. However, in the interests of not overloading the config menu, I suggest the option simply be "Sound Scheme: NeoLemmix / NeoLemmix CE". NeoLemmix keeps the current NL status quo, CE adds the new stuff. At least to begin with, we should try it like this and see if there's demand for the individual sounds to be broken out into their own options later.

There is also scope for the "Sound Schemes" idea to incorporate other skill sounds that some people find annoying (the Swimmer sound, anyone?). It could even be expanded to a 3-way option:

Necessary only - Builder/Platformer/Stacker bricks, Zombies, Let's Go!, Exiting lems, basic un-pitched panel buttons, Bombers

Enhanced - Add the Assign Fail sound and the enhanced panel buttons (pitched RR/Skill buttons)

Complete - Add the less-necessary skill sounds (Jumper, Laserer, Swimmer)

100% optional please and it being turned off as standard.

For the first release, let's do as I've suggested and make a 2-way "NL / NL-CE" option, and switch it on by default. Reasons: (1) Give the sounds a try first, they might not be as annoying as you think, (2) we can always set them to off by default in a later update (I imagine 1.1 will follow not too long afterwards, and 1.0 will be getting an RC phase anyway).

Some users might like the sounds; we want to reach those people as well as those who are vocal in opposing them. Otherwise, some users who might like (or even rely on) the expanded sound scheme might not realise it exists, and that's worse than someone being annoyed and then realising that they can turn the sounds off (an annoyed user is far more likely to go config-menu-diving!).

Ultimately, I understand the need to protect the current NL status quo for the literally "noisier" UI stuff like sounds, so rest assured that I won't go ahead with adding anything until we've reached a consensus on this.

Thoughts & suggestions welcome.

[IchoTolot]

I agree that the RC version can be used with additional sounds for testing purposes so that we can at least try them out.

I exaggerated yes, but I can easily see that we can get into the "too many sounds" area not only through many new sounds but through the right/wrong ones and I can already see the potential here.

The "Sound Schemes" idea sounds like a very good suggestion. We should use the RC to test it out. Maybe even ask a new playerprofile what they prefer at the first start?

Adding the swimmer to Complete is something we could test. I agree that the sound not being optimal and is my least favorite sound out of the current. Maybe we even find/create a better one that is easier on the ears!

[Armani]

Reasons: (1) Give the sounds a try first, they might not be as annoying as you think, (2) we can always set them to off by default in a later update

Isn't it possible to justify implementing every feature with this logic?
: People don't want feature X, but let's implement it anyway because there's a chance people will change their mind. And if feature X sparks a backlash we can ditch in a later update.

I would suggest implementing it as you said(make them optional + switch them on by default) for RC. And poll them to see enough people support the ideas after the RC phase before implementing them to "official" CE.

NL is the most popular engine and most of the custom lemmings levels are being played with it. And considering that CE is practically going to be the "official" latest version of NeoLemmix, I don't think it's a good idea to casually implement and remove things just to see if people like them or not.
RC can handle that.

And
1)rejecting a feature that is being tested in the RC build
2)removing a feature that is already implemented to an official release
these two are very different and one is siginificantly harder than the other obviously.

And you remind me that I've always thought the swimmer sound is too loud.   I volume it down for my NL setup. I wonder if people are interested in making it quieter.

[WillLem]

The "Sound Schemes" idea sounds like a very good suggestion. We should use the RC to test it out. Maybe even ask a new playerprofile what they prefer at the first start?

Yes, we can add sound schemes to the Welcome Screen for sure. I'll implement it as a 2-way enum to begin with (NeoLemmix Status Quo / NeoLemmix CE) so it's future-proof if we want a 3-way option.

Adding the swimmer to Complete is something we could test.

For now, maybe we could include it in the "NeoLemmix CE" option?

Isn't it possible to justify implementing every feature with this logic?

Yes, it is. But I'm not doing that, I'm using it to justify implementing this feature!

I don't think it's a good idea to casually implement and remove things just to see if people like them or not.
RC can handle that.

Agreed. The RC phase is likely going become a particularly important development step for CE.

Rest assured, I have no desire to step on anyone's toes; the goal is to add some much-requested features and/or obvious UI improvements (which would include auditory feedback, i.e. sounds) to make NeoLemmix even more Forum-friendly. We'll use RC/Experimental builds for feature testing, then (if a feature warrants it*), we'll poll to get a consensus.

*All I will say is that I don't think it's necessary to do this for every feature; the ones that need it will present themselves as development progresses. The important thing at the moment is to get started, get something released, see what the feeling is.

And you remind me that I've always thought the swimmer sound is too loud.   I volume it down for my NL setup. I wonder if people are interested in making it quieter.

For sure, by all means share your lower-volume version and we can trial that as well.

[Armani]

Yes, it is. But I'm not doing that, I'm using it to justify implementing this feature!

I mean, with those reasonings you can justify implementing anything, even the worst things imaginable for example. That means the reasonings are not good enough by themselves. That's what I was talking about.

Rest assured, I have no desire to step on anyone's toes; the goal is to add some much-requested features and/or obvious UI improvements (which would include auditory feedback, i.e. sounds) to make NeoLemmix even more Forum-friendly. We'll use RC/Experimental builds for feature testing, then (if a feature warrants it*), we'll poll to get a consensus.

*All I will say is that I don't think it's necessary to do this for every feature; the ones that need it will present themselves as development progresses. The important thing at the moment is to get started, get something released, see what the feeling is.

If some features are much requested or obvious UI improvements, I'm more than happy to see them in NLCE. We can maybe discuss about some details if needed and move on without polls as you said.

But the fundamental problem I want to point out is that a lot of the features in your list are not obvious improvements nor something much requested in the first place. I've been around forum and LF discord server for years now just like you and a lot of us. I've played a lot of levels made by many different NL players. And it's hard to believe that your list of CE features is a collection of community requests in general.(I'd be happy to be proved wrong) The list rather looks more like a WillLem's personal wish list to me. Maybe you branched some of the most controversial things out but still.

Things like assign fail and -/+sound for example, they are not obvious improvements, they are a matter of personal preference. And I can't see evidence of it being much requested.(Again, I'd be happy to be proved wrong)

That's why I suggested we can use RC build as a demo of the possible features and later ask people if they are happy about them being implemented to official version. I expect there'll be a lot of things people actually want to see but at the same time I'm pretty sure there'll be non-negligible number of features people aren't really into.

Some users might like the sounds; we want to reach those people as well as those who are vocal in opposing them. Otherwise, some users who might like (or even rely on) the expanded sound scheme might not realise it exists, and that's worse than someone being annoyed and then realising that they can turn the sounds off (an annoyed user is far more likely to go config-menu-diving!).

That's a good point.
There's necessity to reach potential users who want a certain feature but aren't vocal. With the same logic you can easily expect there're people who are in the exact opposite, right? So I would argue that interpreting silence as "go ahead" makes little sense.

[WillLem]

I mean, with those reasonings you can justify implementing anything

I'm aware of what you meant. My response to what you said was partly meant in jest, but I was also pointing out that just because I could do something doesn't mean that I have any intention of doing so. I've repeatedly reassured you that I will give everyone plenty of opportunity to discuss and/or review features in an RC before deciding on them being implemented in the final version, and I intend to stick to that.

I'm now asking you for the courtesy of letting things play out, at least until 1.0 is released. I also think we could do with taking things down a notch or two. NL 12.14 is official NeoLemmix; it isn't going anywhere. CE is a pet project that might one day become the standard iff Forum users accept it as such, but we're a long way away from that.

Anyway, so far, most of the discussions have resulted in features either being put on hold or somewhat re-worked. They've even given rise to potentially better ideas (Sound Scheme - this very topic!, Replay hotkey, etc). The features list is just a starting point, it's by no means the final article.

But the fundamental problem I want to point out is that a lot of the features in your list are not obvious improvements nor something much requested in the first place.

At a glance, at least half of the items on this list have either been specifically requested by someone else, or there has been a general consensus that something needs to be done about it (the Replay options, for example), but perhaps no specific ideas.

Obviously, some of the items are ideas I've had and things I've suggested myself; I wouldn't even be bothering to make CE if I didn't have a decent amount of my own ideas that I think are worthwhile. Also, my expectation is that others will later make feature requests, for which CE will provide a potential platform.

As for things not being an improvement, that's a matter of opinion. The hope is that people will share their opinions and we'll reach some sort of consensus. If a majority of people think something isn't an improvement, it obviously won't be implemented into the final version (at least not non-optionally, anyway). If I feel strongly enough that it is an improvement, then I'll call programmer's prerogative and ask for it to be tested in an RC version before it's dismissed altogether. I'm sure we can agree that's reasonable.

it's hard to believe that your list of CE features is a collection of community requests in general.(I'd be happy to be proved wrong) The list rather looks more like a WillLem's personal wish list to me.

Well, surely that's one of the perks of being the one doing the programming, I get first dibs on the ideas!

But seriously, even if the list is a personal wish list, that doesn't automatically invalidate it. On the contrary, in order for the project to happen at all, it needs a starting point. Let's start with the list I've provided, move forward from there, other people help the ideas to take shape or contribute ideas of their own, and the project develops as it goes along. That's how NL happened in the first place!

Things like assign fail and -/+sound for example, they are not obvious improvements, they are a matter of personal preference.

I explain the merits of the Assign Fail sound here. The -/+ sound is present in nearly every early Lemmings port and is as much an integral part of the game's aesthetic as the rings-collecting sound in Sonic, or the flagpole sound in Mario. I'd say that makes them obvious improvements, but I realise that people may disagree which is why they'll be made optional.

That's why I suggested we can use RC build as a demo of the possible features and later ask people if they are happy about them being implemented to official version. I expect there'll be a lot of things people actually want to see but at the same time I'm pretty sure there'll be non-negligible number of features people aren't really into.

OK. Only one way to find out though...!

There's necessity to reach potential users who want a certain feature but aren't vocal. With the same logic you can easily expect there're people who are in the exact opposite, right? So I would argue that interpreting silence as "go ahead" makes little sense.

If I interpret it as anything else, CE won't happen.

Besides, if the Forums have taught me one thing, it's that you can always rely on people to speak up if they're against something happening. Active support is much harder to come by.