[NeoLemmix] Deceit's Lemmings

[NieSch]

Ha, that's cool. Welcome to the forums!

[IchoTolot]

Welcome to the forum, Deceit!

I really loved the pack when I played through it and it's definitly among my favorites!

- Mayhem 21, "Enter at own risk" was going to be removed at completed version. I thought this level is too ridiculous and unfair, but finally included to the pack with removing. Because a very difficult level was needed for 'Buy a pizza' bet with ssam1221. (And he finished Mayhem 21 with intended solution.)

This is actually my favorite level out of the pack and I don't think it's ridiculous/unfair at all! It is just very very hard and you 100% need to know the mechanics of the game. It doesn't use any kind of bug, glitch or hidden stuff to deceive the player and all needed tools are there in plain view just before your eyes.

All in all the pack really helped me increasing my solving abilities and I used that gained knowledge as well when creating Lemmings United. Great job on it again!

[Swerdis]

Hello Deceit and welcome to the forum

I recently played your pack and uploaded my solutions to my channel. I must say that it was a pleasure to play your levels - they are full of great ideas and very diverse. Great job It's almost a shame that I severely backrouted some of them, such as Mayhem 9 "The law of the jungle" or Mayhem 15 ("It's all about the style")

And then -  the day will come when I will be able to solve your final level. Anything I tried didn't work so far - but at least I seem to be in good company here in the forums.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka/playlists

[Nessy]

Hi Deceit!

I loved reading about the background information and fun facts about your pack especially that hidden message in Taxing 13 behind the one-way wall... that was quite interesting to say the least heh

I also agree with IchoTolot I didn't think Mayhem 21 was unfair in any way. I couldn't solve it for the life of me when I first played it but when I finally saw the solution I thought it was actually amazing! A failed attempt at that level did inspire one of my own levels so I think you'll be happy to know that your pack is truly a classic around here and a pack that is continuing to inspire people to this day

[ccexplore]

Welcome Deceit!  Your written English seems fine to me by the way.  So glad you are able to find your way to our forums.  I haven't played your levels (or much of anyone else's for a long while now), but have definitely heard good things about your pack before.

If you do plan to make updates to your pack later and have trouble using the NeoLemmix editor, don't hesitate to ask here for help.  Sounds like even if we don't change any levels now for backroutes, we could still maybe do some small changes, like changing the rating names to what you intended.

Traditionally Western biology/medicine do use "salty" for one of the four human taste receptor types, even though I think nowadays we recognize there are more than four types, and there are of course sensations like spiciness that are maybe not strictly a taste, but nevertheless has major effects on our experience with food.  I actually like "spicy" for rating name, I think it sounds better than "salty" as a replacement for "taxing".

[Strato Incendus]

Welcome, Deceit! I didn't know you hadn't been on the forums yet; I thought you were a former Lemmingsforums member who had simply disappeared for a while.

So I guess you're the first person now that joins the forum and already has had a Groupie level dedicated to them .

To explain: I created levels inspired by the level-building style of other content creators for the "Groupie" rank of my pack Lemmings World Tour. Apparently several people found it quite funny to try and guess which was their level, and judge how close I had come to imitating their level-building style. You were one of the people I actually dedicated two levels to - one gives this away right away in the title, the other one is a little less obvious. Maybe you find the time to judge it for yourself! (The pack is currently still only available in Old Formats, but I'm working on finishing the conversion to New Formats.)

In short: It's good to finally have you here in person!

[deceit]

Thanks for your support and attention to my pack!

Before uploading the intended solutions, I've started modifying the existing levels with Neolemmix's new features(new skills, infinite time, vertical scroll, ... etc) by referencing your replays.

Basically they'll be backroute-fixing, In addition some level's skill set will be modified with Neolemmix's new featured skills, and most of unnecessary time limits will be removed.

I planned some extra new levels. Maybe some levels in Mayhem(Bitter) will be moved to Taxing, and new levels will fill the Mayhem.

Each rating's naming will be renamed to "Sweet", "Sour", "Spicy" and "Bitter". I agreed to ccexplore's suggestion that Spicy sounds better than Salty. Thanks to suggestion!

[kaywhyn]

Hello,

I have finished solving the entire pack. My replay collection is attached. I also have an LP of the pack complete.

Link to the LP: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJudqu-GEKZxAHDFZfcdFLWe. Enjoy!

General Remarks on the Pack

I first played the pack on Lemmix from some years ago, as the pack was originally made for that engine. I was able to solve every level except for Mayhem 21 back then. I came back to the level about a year later or so, and I was able to figure it out and solve it that time. I must say I felt extremely proud of myself for figuring it out on my own. As Icho and Nessy have stated in their posts, I'm in complete agreement of their assessment of the level as "not unfair," in contrast to Deceit, who was thinking of removing the level from the pack because he felt it was "too hard and ridiculously unfair." Rather, it simply requires knowledge of the game mechanics.

Fast forward another few years, and I have now played the New Formats NL version of the pack that Nepster gladly converted it to thanks to Gronkling's help for finding the pack. I should point out that the link to the Old Formats version is dead, as it appears that Deceit himself has taken the site down. I don't even know if I still have the Lemmix version of the pack, but I could always take a look around on my laptop.

Indeed, despite how the pack has far less levels than was originally planned, I remember liking this pack a lot when I played through it back then on Lemmix. The Taxing rank was where I started feeling the pack being challenging, but the Mayhem rank definitely ramped up the difficulty considerably.  The Tricky rank had a few difficult levels as well, but they were still quite easy compared to the Taxing and Mayhem levels.

I liked the pack back when I played it on Lemmix, and that continued to be true when I was LPing the New Formats NL version. However, I breezed through the pack far faster than I thought I would. Perhaps it's largely due to how in contrast to Lemmix, the levels are considerably easier to execute due to the skill shadows being available in NL but not in Lemmix. Of course, if I really wanted the additional challenge, I could always disable them, but TBT I'm so used to them that I'm too lazy to turn them off Or maybe I simply found the levels far easier now than I did back then despite how it's been years since I last played this pack.


Feedback on the Levels

Not much to say about the Fun rank other than the levels there are all easy. Almost all of the Tricky levels are easy as well. Tricky 3 - PiPeLiNe PaRaLLeL can be difficult, but it's more the execution that can be hard than the level itself. It's a really nice one, though. Tricky 9 - Stairway Garden, Tricky 12 - Hold the line, and Tricky 14 - The Lemming March were my favorites in the rank. Tricky 9 is a really nice two skill types level and knowing how to use the blockers so as to give the lead worker lemming enough time to bridge the long gap to the exit before anyone falls to the bottomless pit before it's done. Tricky 12 is yet another simple two skill types level, except the builders are replaced with bombers. Finally, Tricky 14 is a great 1-of-everything level that can be difficult due to the very high RR and somewhat tight time limit, but it's really not too hard. In this case, I would say both the execution and the puzzle can be difficult, but they're still not over-the-top in either.


Taxing 1 - One More Corrosion is a nice level to start off the Taxing rank. I remember struggling with this a bit when I first played the pack on Lemmix those years ago. The title is clearly a reference to Wicked 3 - This Corrosion, so if you know the intended solution on that level, then the solution to One More Corrosion is quite similar.

Taxing 2 - BroadBanded can be difficult as well, but it's still not too bad. Nice 1-of-everything level, where time runs out surprisingly fast.

Taxing 3 - I My Me Mine Miner can also be difficult, but definitely the execution can be as well. It's all about knowing certain miner tricks.

Taxing 4 - Symmetrical Structure System I think I remember this one being difficult when I first played it on Lemmix, although I think I might be confusing it with another level. I recall there being a custom Bubble level that I think I played on Dos many years ago where there were a lot of fake objects so that things weren't as they appeared to be, eg, terrain that looks destructible but is actually steel, among other nuances. This level certainly isn't too hard, but I would say the hardest part is knowing how to release the crowd so that they all fall out spilling in one direction, not both.

Taxing 5 - Watch me Follow can also be difficult, particularly the execution, but it's another really nice two skill types level where you only have diggers and bashers and need to figure out how to turn both entrances back to the left without builders, because they aren't provided in the level.

I definitely remember Taxing 9 - Slow Esthetics being a difficult one when I first played it on Lemmix. The time limit isn't the problem here, it's the execution, making sure that no one falls into the water before you get across with just your 3 builders. This is made complicated by the very high RR. I'm certain I made it harder on myself than I needed to here, as I later realized a far easier way where a builder or two can be placed elsewhere that would make the level much easier rather than it being so tight. Still, it's a great level.

I also remember Taxing 10 - Pillar Confusion being a difficult one, but I'm sure I made it harder on myself than I needed to back then. I definitely say the hardest part is knowing how to use your builders to get across at the bottom and how to get through the obstacles.

Taxing 12 - It Lems On for sure is a difficult one only because the first digger assignment is super precise so that non-floaters can get down safely. It's a really nice one, though. One of my favorites despite it. The visuals are nice here, too.

Taxing 13 - Around and Around I also remember being a hard one. On top of it, execution can also be difficult, but I say the puzzle is harder. It's a really good one, though.

Spoiler

I think this might be the level where I learned about the blocker can turn a digger trick. It might had been some other custom Dos level where I learned this trick, but I'm thinking this is likely the level where I learned the trick, as I definitely figured this level out on my own. I think I was already familiar with the digger a builder staircase and building into the single pixel to turn around long before I played this level on some custom Dos pack.

Special mention goes to Taxing 14 - Bubble Trouble, as this is the name of my R1 contest level! TBT, I didn't even remember Deceit made a level called Bubble Trouble. However, as this is a generic title, it's possible there may be multiple levels with the same title, not just Deceit's and mine. As I would expect from a level with this title, it happens to be a Bubble level, just like mine. The huge difference is that Deceit's level only has 1 minute, while mine is a 3-minute level. This would be a straightforward level without the very strict time limit, but that's the main challenge: Beating the clock! Fortunately, the save requirement is quite lenient here, so even if not everyone makes it to the exit on time, you still have some leeway in this regard. For this reason, I remember this one being difficult when I played it on Lemmix, but that's because of the execution and working out the timing so that you can finish on time.


I pretty much remember almost all of the Mayhem rank being difficult when I first played the pack on Lemmix. Indeed, Mayhem 1 - Island over the horizon can be a difficult level to start off the rank, particularly figuring out the route to take and which exit to go to or possibly even both, with the two entrances going to separate ones. It's a nice one, though.

I definitely remember Mayhem 2 - Vertical Sequence being quite a hard one. The main difficulty here, I say, is figuring out how to get the lemmings down both drops safely.

Then, Mayhem 3 - Crystal Method. This was a huge, major stumper for me back then. It still was in my LP, but it's more due to not remembering how I originally solved this level. Even then, this level is definitely a really hard one. Here, I'm sure I made it far harder than I needed to. I think I even remember doing it differently on Lemmix. The execution and timing here is quite difficult on top of a really hard puzzle.

Mayhem 4 - Build Nine can be a difficult level even though there's only builders. This one took me longer back then on Lemmix, but this time it was a very quick one, as I already know both tricks that are needed here

Spoiler

I might had learned the Dolly Dimple builder trick here, as I certainly didn't solve it this way on said level back then.

Mayhem 5 - Critical Cross I also remember being a difficult one. I think it's more the execution rather than the puzzle itself.

Special mention goes to Mayhem 6 - Lemmings Uncharted, which so happens to be the name of Armani's in-progress level pack. I recently brought this up with him on Discord, and we're certain both mine and his happen to be a coincidence that we ended up using the name of something that Deceit already used in this pack. I joked that Deceit's legacy lives on! Regarding the level, not a hard one, just the timing I used is a bit difficult.

I honestly didn't remember Mayhem 7 - PoP PoP LoVeLY when I saw it in my LP. This one can be hard, especially with getting the bottom crowd up to the exit, but I say the hardest part is finding the best way through the terrain without wasting too many skills.

I vaguely remember Mayhem 8 - Stairway Progress. Not too hard of a level, although certainly beating the clock here is the main challenge.

Ah, I absolutely remember struggling with Mayhem 9 - The Law of the Jungle when I played it on Lemmix. The solution I used in my LP is different, but I'm sure I remember originally going up the right side of the level. It might had been patched out so that's not possible in the New Formats version? In any case, I kind of cheesed it here

Mayhem 11 - Complexity The main challenge is finishing on time on an otherwise nearly straightforward level. I'm not sure if there's any way to finish with several seconds remaining, as I think all the solutions I've seen all have it very tight on time.

Mayhem 12 - Shorty Deep Inside isn't very hard, but the timing can be. I'm sure I made it far harder than I needed to, especially since I built from a far than ideal location to catch the climbers. I still feel like my solution shouldn't had worked, as it appears that the straggler(s) is still below the final builder brick before getting past it, similar to my solution on Planet 13 in Nepsterlems.

Mayhem 13 - Bitter than cold is a difficult one, but really it's more the timing that's hard. I kind of didn't remember this level, but it's a nice one. One of my favorites.

I absolutely remember Mayhem 14 - Lemmings Fever and how very difficult it is in finishing on time, as the time limit is very strict. It's a straightforward level otherwise without it. Really nice one to figure out and to beat the clock here.

I think I somewhat remember Mayhem 15 - It's All About the Style. Somewhat difficult, especially with figuring out the best way to get up the level and to the exit with the extremely limited amount of builders.

Mayhem 16 - The Scaffold Difficult one, especially with figuring out how to get all lemmings down safely after containing the crowd at the top. My solution is a bit fiddly in getting everyone down and making sure everyone goes to the right.

I absolutely remember Mayhem 17 - Quintuple Squeeze Machine. I remember struggling with it on Lemmix, but I think it's because I made it far harder than I needed to. It's very possible to save so much over the requirement here, and I didn't have as many problems in my LP of this level this time around

I also remember struggling with Mayhem 18 - The Enigma. I think I remember using a very fiddly method of solving the level back then, and I knid of did the same here The timing can be difficult, and time runs out much faster than you think it would.

I think I also remember having some problems with Mayhem 19 - Was it worth back then. I think it was the execution I was having problems with, not the puzzle itself. In my solution, I found a really easy way to do it by shortening the amount of walking the crowd needs to do.

I definitely remember Mayhem 20 - Kreuzung at the Mountain. It's somewhat of a difficult level, but it's not too hard at all. Don't be fooled by the huge amount of builders, as they end up running out very fast, particularly on a wide level like this one. It's also almost an X-of-everything, where you have 20 of everything except builders AND you have no bashers. Also, the time limit might seem extremely generous here, but it too also ends up running out very fast. It really came down to the wire here, although I certainly could had made it far less tight on time here.

And now, we get to the infamous Mayhem 21 - Enter at your own risk.... As I said before, I wasn't able to solve this level back then when I played the pack on Lemmix. It was the only level I couldn't solve. I came back to the level about a year or so later and I was able to successfully figure it out on my own.

Spoiler

I think this might be the third level I knew of where the nuke is required. The first was Surprise Package? from Xmas Lemmings, the second was that Dovelems level in the Plain rank. It might even be the 4th one, as I remember there was a level from one of Insane Steve's Dos packs where the nuke is needed. If I ended up solving that level first, then Mayhem 21 of Deceit's pack would be the 4th level I know which uses the nuke. I definitely solved this level long before I even reached the Genocide level of United that requires the nuke. Since I played United for much of 2020, starting near the end of 2019, it must had been the case that I played Deceit's Lemmings sometime around 2017 or even 2018.

And then, Mayhem 22, which doesn't even have a title, but I guess it's a reward for having beaten Mayhem 21 and supposedly the entire pack up to this point. Super easy level due to having an infinite amount of every skill and having 1 entire hour to solve the level.


Overall, great job with this pack, Deceit, and thank you Nepster for converting it to New Formats NL. It was fun enjoying this pack all over again even though it's been years since I played the pack. Definitely a classic and one where it seems to have inspired many here on the forums. Again I totally forgot that Deceit even made a level called Bubble Trouble, so it's not like I intentionally took this name that a designer already used and gave it to my R1 level Definitely a coincidence for sure.