New objects general discussion

[namida]

This topic is here for general discussions around the new objects that don't warrant their own topics, as well as for feedback on levels using them.

To help people find relevant levels easily, please post them in the New Objects Level Sharing topic instead.

[IchoTolot]

After playing around these are my current opinions on the object proposals:

Design:

Portals seem to me the easiest to design very clearly and consistently if done right: A large swirling vortex.

Skill assigners/removers and de/neutralizers are a bit more tricky here and we would need to discuss a bit more about general guidelines to find an easy to recognize design pattern. Yes, even if tilesets should have creative freedom, the objects included in them should all be clearly recognizable. Guidelines are a big help here, but that does not mean they need to be followed 100% and you may come up with a great alternative way.
It is just very helpful to have some general design guidelines for clearly recognisable objects!

Usability:

For new interesting puzzle potential I would rank skill assigners/removers the highest. Just the way of enforcing permanent skill changes in lemmings is a mechanic that can't always be simulated right now, with skill removal being impossible apart from somehow forcing single lemmings to be sacrificed early.
I see the situation where it would be convenient to have such an object also quite common.

After that I would put the de/neutralizers. Neutrals are not that common, but this new mechanic in general cannot really be simulated and could really improve the usefulnes of neutrals even further. Forcing groups of lems to become uncontrollable or guiding neutrals to places where they can become controlable could end up in very interesting puzzles.

Portals have their usages, but in terms of usefulnes I would rank them the lowest out of the new object proposals. In a lot of cases, teleporters and updrafts could do the job and I think they shine the most when transporting condensed lemming crowds without thinking about teleporter downtimes.
Note, as I already hear people typing some passionate portal defense posts : I am not against them! I don't say they shouldn't make the cut! I just think out of the proposals they would add the least amount of new interesting behaviors. Nothing more.

So these are my current observations and general thoughts about the new objects.

[GigaLem]

As I have made 1 of each level with each object so far, I've sprouted a few ideas on how I can use these objects.

As per my thoughts go currently with these objects, I feel there might need to be more testing or idea sharing how these objects could be used.
I want to see people try to test these objects out for themselves and see what ideas they can come up with, while I have some ideas that I've shown with them and I currently have another couple of levels planned, let's begin with each.

I really like the ability to remove/assign the skills through the level design because it can add another layer of creativity to the level designing process and can add new strategies and life into the levels themselves.

-Guiding Neutrals to the correct skill assigner
-De-Neutralizing the gain another lemming if no cloner or another lemming existed before hand
-Being able to change a from one permanent skill to another but removing the last skill before it
-Or a level involving avoiding skill removers to keep an important skill later into the level

There is plenty of potential with Remover/assigners, there just needs to be some tooling and testing around

The Portals are something that needs a new mindset due to the fact they're two way teleporters and that alone is enough to justify its existence, just thinking more about it gave me some interesting ideas. With it being more instantaneous it comes with its own strengths and weaknesses that adds a layer of intrigue to the game. With it carrying the ability to use a skill through it, it could me favorable for areas that would not quite as appealing for the teleporter, placing them on walls combining two areas together.

I have already went over how I'd think the field would look like, might as well go for a more updated statement about it

The Portals I agree with Ichotolot here, a spiraling vortex, but if I can add something to it, its that the vortex can take some different shapes and forms, and the mix and matching elements about it (with custom sets having versions of the portals) They're probably the easiest objects to design.

The fields, my idea involved having representing a glowing or pulsating field and like with the test objects having a "minus/plus neutral/skill/all" above it.
Colors of the fields might also help it as well, like with green and red being used for splat and anti splat fields, the Add/Remove fields can like Blue for Add and Gray for Remove (at least until someone can think of a better color coding for add/remove fields)

I figured that with the skill adder, you'd be able to offset where the skill goes like the pickup skill, meaning making a space for those fields would also require a mask similar to the pick up skills.

From what I've tried, I already like what im using and im already planning to make as much as I can before the end of March

[namida]

While feedback has been limited compared to the new skills proposals, I do feel this has been open a long time and decisions need to start getting made.

At this stage, I am going to confirm all new object types will go ahead, subject to not running into major technical issues while testing / fixing them (but there will be no further "is it popular?" or "is it useful?" discussion factored in).

Given that I've also implemented a lot of other (general) improvements to NL, but done very little work on replay editor / manager, I'm also considering whether to go back to having 12.13 as the new objects version and then 12.14 for the replay stuff. This is not a definite decision yet, though. With this being said, these definitely need more testing before they're ready to include in a stable build.

[namida]

Commit 5c4e647 earlier today merged the new-objects branch into master, which also means they're confirmed for inclusion in the next major update (ie: 12.13.XX).

[IchoTolot]

I did some replay testing with V6:

Packs checked:

DoveLems, PimoLems, Lemmings Reunion, Lemmings United, NL Intro Pack, Lemmings Uncharted and some of my single level stuff.

Only 2 breaks: Aquarius 2 and 12 from Lemmings Uncharted!

Both due to the fixed slider behavior. Aquarius 12 would need a fix. Aquarius 2 only a replay fix.

My recommendation in terms of compatibility so far (V6) would be to replay check all your slider levels and confirm that they do not break with the physic fix!

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the hint! My existing packs don't feature the Slider yet, but Lemmings Hall of Fame and Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll do.
I don't know what exactly has changed about the Slider, but I'll do a mass-replay check anyway, once I've downloaded the newest stable version.
I haven't had any contact with the new objects at all yet.

[IchoTolot]

Thanks for the hint! My existing packs don't feature the Slider yet, but Lemmings Hall of Fame and Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll do.
I don't know what exactly has changed about the Slider, but I'll do a mass-replay check anyway, once I've downloaded the newest stable version.
I haven't had any contact with the new objects at all yet.

In general the 2 things to watch out for are:

Slider behavior fix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5795.0

Fix of overlapping blocker fields (which can affect some replays):

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6133.0
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5831.0

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the explanation, IchoTolot!

I don't think I've ever consciously used either behaviour in any of my levels created since 2021 (i.e., for my currently in-development packs, since I didn't release any packs in that time frame anyway). But some levels may still break accidentally, because of something else that was potentially changed in order to deal with these bugs.

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I have solved all of @GigaLems' new objects levels which can be found in this topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5872.0

Here are my replays. I've also have video solutions to these levels, as well as GigaLems' intended solutions to them for comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJtzFzzvjWtoZFWqZvdHlGnX. Enjoy!

"Swiss Army Strife," "Re-enlistment," "Death Liquidation," and "Insane in the Pipe Frame" should all be pretty bad backroutes Though the first one in a way kind of looks more to be an alternative rather than a backroute. Same thing with " "Santa's Little Shortcuts," though I believe that because this builder/platformer thing for portals got fixed (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5864.15), I think that's why it's not necessary to come from the other side to build.

Spoiler

If you let a Lemming platform and then build after he uses the portal, Lemmings following will fall instead of following the builder. I'm guessing it's just due to where the Lemming's pin is when they go through the portal and explains why they can't use the builder bridge. It seems to not be in their path as well.

Everything else is likely acceptable/intended Nice levels to showcase the new objects in NL V12.13, and certainly GigaLems' intended solutions to the ones I severely backrouted are far more impressive than my solutions   My favorites here were "Pierce the Flames," "Crank the Flow," and "Santa's Little Shortcuts"!

I think seeing the intended solutions have given me some new objects level ideas of my own, even if I don't think I'll be making heavy use of them in general