[NeoLemmix] Lemmings Redux Records Thread

[Minim]

WillLem's idea of compiling records onto a single levelpack is an interesting one. I'm going to do one for Redux, because at the moment it is the pack included in the main download after all.

Edit: As suggested by namida, I'm going to put this on hold until next week. I'll keep the topic open but I've de-attached the replays and kept the results (Skills, Time, Lems Saved) safely in my document. If anyone wants to see them during the week then please let me know.

[namida]

Perhaps it's a good idea to put this on hold until Proxima finishes the new version, rather than asking people to manually make changes? (Not forcing you to do so; this is just a suggestion.)

[Minim]

Good idea. I've updated the OP to reflect this.

[Proxima]

So... Redux is finalised except for talismans now. Should this topic be reopened?

I'm going to be honest: my inclination is to say no, we should just delete it, but I will see what others have to say before taking action.

Redux results are already compiled in the max saved topic and the SYCLW topic; we don't have a topic for NL minimum total skills yet, but I am thinking of starting one next time WillLem or namida and I have time to go through a rank together. Duplicating the results in this topic would double the work involved any time a result needs to be updated; it would also privilege Redux over other packs that don't have their own challenge topics.

Just to make things clear, I am not criticising WillLem for starting a topic compiling all the Lemminas results into one location. That's his call, so long as he is prepared to do the extra work of keeping the results up-to-date.

[WillLem]

Ideally, this would be the only thread used to keep Redux records. I aim to put all Lemminas records in the official thread, and heartily encourage others to do the same.

Of course, I don't mind periodically copying results across from other threads if there are updates posted in other threads (as long as I know about them!)

EDIT: In addition, I'd say it makes more sense for each pack to have its own records thread for all challenges. That way, everything (including replays, discussion, etc) is in one place that's easy for anyone to find. It beats scrolling through pages and pages of threads looking for a particular pack, and also means people are less likely to duplicate results for packs already played for a particular challenge.

[Proxima]

EDIT: In addition, I'd say it makes more sense for each pack to have its own records thread for all challenges. That way, everything (including replays, discussion, etc) is in one place that's easy for anyone to find. It beats scrolling through pages and pages of threads looking for a particular pack, and also means people are less likely to duplicate results for packs already played for a particular challenge.

Let's say you want to find discussion for SYCLW for Lunatic 6 (just to pick a level at random). Scrolling through pages and pages of a thread containing SYCLW discussion for several different packs is neither better nor worse than scrolling through pages and pages of a thread containing discussion for several different challenges for one pack. The only way to minimise the task of searching would be to split everything and have separate topics for every challenge-pack combination; but then the cost is that it's harder to find a particular thread, or to know whether a relevant thread even exists yet. I see this as a much worse problem, so I am not seriously considering this option.

So, if we agree that results should be grouped somehow, I really don't see why combining by pack "makes more sense" than combining by challenge type. What are the specific advantages of that system -- the advantages you get that way that you don't with type-combining?

The advantages of type-combining are, firstly, that things are already organised that way, so we don't have to do a lot of reorganising work; secondly, that it's consistent with how challenge threads for the original games are organised. (And since those threads have many different challenges, and for most of them, only original Lemmings / ONML / Holiday have been done, if we did reorganise by pack then we would have huge threads for each of the three "packs", and the problem of finding discussion for a particular result would be much worse.)

Opening posts should, of course, have a zip file compiling all replays posted in the topic. I'll do these for the NL max saved and SYCLW challenges today, just so that they're done. (Done!)

[WillLem]

So, if we agree that results should be grouped somehow, I really don't see why combining by pack "makes more sense" than combining by challenge type. What are the specific advantages of that system -- the advantages you get that way that you don't with type-combining?

I suppose that the main advantage is that it can be linked to directly from the pack's topic, so there is more than 1 way to find records for that pack. The other advantage is that all records for that pack are displayed in one place that's easy to refer to, and so you can open a pack in NL and be working on several challenges at once, if you wish (or, more likely, you'll be working on one challenge but inadvertently discover a solution for another challenge).

EDIT: Now I'm thinking a bit more about it, pack creators could still create a "records" post in their pack's topic, and that post could simply hyperlink to the specific posts in other topics which detail the challenge results.

The advantages of type-combining are, firstly, that things are already organised that way, so we don't have to do a lot of reorganising work; secondly, that it's consistent with how challenge threads for the original games are organised.

Fair enough, I can see how that is also a good way to do it. I also realised after posting that I've opted to post the Lemminas results for Builders & Bashers in the challenge topic, rather than the Lemminas records! I suppose certain records, like most-saved, fewest skills used, fastest time, ought to go in a pack-specific topic, if not the pack topic itself (maybe Post 2 in pack topics could be reserved for this purpose). Other challenges, like SYCLW, Builders & Bashers Only, Fewest X-of-each, are admittedly better off going in a challenge-specific topic, with the option to copy them over to the Pack topic if the creator wishes to do so (i.e. in order to keep them in one place for the reasons mentioned above).

I don't wish to upset the status quo with this one at all, I think I just liked the idea of having an easy-reference records post for Lemminas. I love a good spreadsheet!

[Proxima]

The other advantage is that all records for that pack are displayed in one place that's easy to refer to

Well, yes. But if you group by challenge type, then all records for that challenge are displayed in one place that's easy to refer to And speaking as the main organiser of challenges, that's certainly how I prefer things -- but I can see how having a compilation of results for a pack would be appealing to pack authors. That's why I don't object to the "Lemminas challenges" topic existing, but I don't see it as a compelling reason to group by pack, especially since many packs' authors are no longer active.

I suppose certain records, like most-saved, fewest skills used, fastest time, ought to go in a pack-specific topic, if not the pack topic itself (maybe Post 2 in pack topics could be reserved for this purpose). Other challenges, like SYCLW, Builders & Bashers Only, Fewest X-of-each, are admittedly better off going in a challenge-specific topic, with the option to copy them over to the Pack topic if the creator wishes to do so (i.e. in order to keep them in one place for the reasons mentioned above).

Organising things differently for different challenges seems even worse than making a unilateral shift! Sorry if it feels like I'm badgering you with questions, but I just want to understand why you think this is a good idea, because maybe you have a good point and I'm just not seeing it.

I think I just liked the idea of having an easy-reference records post for Lemminas. I love a good spreadsheet!

Well, you have that and I'm not saying you can't keep it! Though I do wonder: maybe it would be better to move the Lemminas challenge records to the pack topic rather than a topic in Challenges?

[WillLem]

I don't object to the "Lemminas challenges" topic existing, but I don't see it as a compelling reason to group by pack, especially since many packs' authors are no longer active.

To be fair, it was never my intention to suggest or encourage a different way of compiling records, I just wanted to do that for my pack.  I might have said somewhere that I think it's a better idea and I can see why it may have been taken as a suggestion that everyone start doing that, but it genuinely wasn't!

Organising things differently for different challenges seems even worse than making a unilateral shift! Sorry if it feels like I'm badgering you with questions, but I just want to understand why you think this is a good idea, because maybe you have a good point and I'm just not seeing it.

Not at all, as you're challenge board mod I'd expect you to engage in dialogue about it. Yeah, I agree to some extent that it's best to do one or the other, but I just would have thought that the basic records for a pack (most saved, best time, etc) don't really warrant a separate topic because they're not really a challenge, as such, they're just a natural part of completing the pack, albeit in an optimised way.

Well, you have that and I'm not saying you can't keep it! Though I do wonder: maybe it would be better to move the Lemminas challenge records to the pack topic rather than a topic in Challenges?

Thanks! You're almost certainly right about this, to be fair, for pretty much the reason I myself just mentioned. I feel like it's a bit late now though, because ideally I would have wanted it to be Post 2 so it's always easy to find. I suppose the hyperlink could just link to whichever post has the record table in it, or if any of the site admins know how to insert a message at the beginning of a topic, I'd be up for doing that.

[Proxima]

Not at all, as you're challenge board mod I'd expect you to engage in dialogue about it. Yeah, I agree to some extent that it's best to do one or the other, but I just would have thought that the basic records for a pack (most saved, best time, etc) don't really warrant a separate topic because they're not really a challenge, as such, they're just a natural part of completing the pack, albeit in an optimised way.

I really don't agree with this. As far as I know, most players try to solve all the levels of a pack (and maybe get all talismans) but don't engage in any challenge-style optimisation at all; and even for players like me who do try to optimise, I regard it as a very different activity from solving unsolved levels, and I usually only do one or the other in a given play session.

[namida]

Not at all, as you're challenge board mod I'd expect you to engage in dialogue about it. Yeah, I agree to some extent that it's best to do one or the other, but I just would have thought that the basic records for a pack (most saved, best time, etc) don't really warrant a separate topic because they're not really a challenge, as such, they're just a natural part of completing the pack, albeit in an optimised way.

I really don't agree with this. As far as I know, most players try to solve all the levels of a pack (and maybe get all talismans) but don't engage in any challenge-style optimisation at all; and even for players like me who do try to optimise, I regard it as a very different activity from solving unsolved levels, and I usually only do one or the other in a given play session.

I perosnally 100% agree with Proxima here.

[WillLem]

Fair enough

The question, then, is: what's the best way to organise records/challenges so that they're easy and convenient to find (and, most importantly, take part in)?

[namida]

From the sounds of things, an index topic does sound like a good idea, regardless of (a) whether we split topics by pack and/or by challenge, and (b) whether or not we split the board by official and unofficial packs?

[Minim]

As the creator of this thread seeing this for the first time, I'm inclined to agree with Proxima that we should generally sort each topic out by challenge (And also by their respective engine) rather than by level pack. That discussion was pretty entertaining on my thread.

However, I do have a full list of fastest time records for Redux in my challenge document draft, complete with a full set of replays. As Proxima has already created a Minimum Skills thread for NL, and that WillLem has a full set of time results for Lemminas, I'm going to create a Best Time record list soon and put both level packs on that thread instead of maintaining and updating 160 Redux levels on a single post.

[Proxima]

Okay. In that case this topic is done. I don't want to delete what was a pretty interesting discussion, so I'll move it to Site Discussion and maybe one of the global mods can merge it with the older "How should the Challenges board be structured?" topic.