Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]

[namida]

If anything, feels like a double-speed kind of skill (which I seem to recall namida already ruled out on grounds of implementation and testing difficulties) might be easier implementation-wise--you'd more or less basically just run the regular physics one extra time in the frame for the subset of lemmings that possess double-speed.

The vast majority of this is changes to the pixel set / test code, and then UI / render stuff. Not much change should be needed to core physics code, so very little chance of unwanted side effects.

[WillLem]

Hang on... does this mean Turbo Lemming might happen after all?

[Strato Incendus]

I think namida is describing the steps to implement wrap here, not SuperLemming...

But I'm not sure, of course.

[namida]

Okay, so poll results suggest very strong interest in this.

This topic can now go back to sleep until work for V12.11.0 begins, which is most likely when I'll look at doing this.

[namida]

From another topic:

Just whilst it's come up: it's still my general feeling that screen wrap's implementation in-game ought to be the choice of the player: if they'd prefer the level to scroll continuously, that's what they'll see. If they'd prefer a glowing edge and lems walking off one side and reappearing the other, same again.

But yeah, maybe a separate topic to discuss wrap? I think there already is one somewhere...

If I can get it to work, my ideal implementation is the infinite scrolling.

If it isn't too much additional work, I can look at adding the "no infinite scroll, but some other clear indicator is present" (for which the glowing edges is one possible indicator) as a second option. Likewise, if I can't get infinite scrolling to work, the glowing edges is a decent alternative suggestion.

[Strato Incendus]

Well, since I'm already trying to emulate Lemmings 2: The Tribes and Lemmings 3D inside NeoLemmix (in separate custom packs), infinite scrolling would enable me to simulate Lemmings Revolution in NeoLemmix... especially if we get portals (=bidirectional, non-release-rate-sensitive teleporters) as well...

[namida]

Okay, I'd like to decide on whether or not Wrap will happen, before V12.11 is released.

Note that wrap will NOT be a V12.11 feature. It is likely to be V12.14 at the earliest for Wrap to actually happen; possibly 12.13 if very few / only very simple object types get the approval - this is just about making the decision. The reason for this relates to the Laserer - there is a specific detail of Laserer physics that is solely there to account for the future possibility of wrap, specifically the distance limit on the laser's range, and if wrap is not going to happen I would prefer to ditch that limit.

As full disclosure, I am currently leaning towards "no" on this one myself. It's one of those things that feels cool, but has limited actual use - doubly so if portals were to be implemented, which would be able to cover most situations that Wrap would otherwise be needed for. Some people may note that I have previously criticized levels that use teleporters to simulate this. The issue there was not the pseudo-wrap in and of itself, but the use of invisible / don't-look-like-teleporters teleporters to do the job (ie: the actual issue was misleading object designs), or of multiple stacked teleporters (ie: it looks like there's one but you can actually ram several lemmings through it at once because there's several in one spot; portals would by design let lemmings rapidly go through so this would not be an issue there). It would also be a lot of work to implement, and while I don't believe it has zero potential, I'm not convinced it has enough to justify the effort. However, note my wording here - "leaning towards no", not "decided it's not going to happen".

I've put a new poll up as the old one was from a very long time ago, when NL's physics and philosophy were a lot less rigid than they are now. I will note that the old one was very much in favor - almost all "Yes" votes with one or two "no preference".

[WillLem]

I voted yes again, but I will note that I'd much rather have the Laserblaster skill and Portals than Wrap, so - if it comes to the crunch and Wrap is causing too many issues - I'd suggest go with Laserblaster & Portals.

As you've pointed out, Portals can be used to simulate wrap, and they can be designed in such a way as not to be misleading.

[IchoTolot]

I'm in the "I don't personally see it as useful but do not object to it existing" section, but I think our efforts are better put somewhere else.

We can add better things and don't need to rely on this clutter.

[Proxima]

I'm voting "no" because I think portals are a much better idea and they can pretty much do everything that wrap can. Do any of the people who've voted "I have ideas for puzzles that use it" have particular ideas that would only work with wrap and not portals?

[Strato Incendus]

I voted yes; I may not have that many current ideas involving wrap, but it would allow me to convert my wrap levels from Lemmicks to New Formats . And apart from that, it would allow for the re-creation of Lemmings Revolution solutions. Yes, portals are a part of that as well, but in Lemmings Revolution, portals and the "wrapped" cylinder shape of the levels are two different things.

[Dullstar]

I still hold the opinion that if we're going to have wrap we should have infinite scrolling. This is something that portals can't emulate, thus giving the boundary of the level special treatment, still. Skills would likely behave differently around the boundaries, and lemmings appearing on the other side of the level is harder to visualize than a proper infinite scroll.

The current Laser Blaster implementation would definitely have major problems with small proper wrap levels though - it's already too large in small levels without wrap, IMO.

[namida]

I still hold the opinion that if we're going to have wrap we should have infinite scrolling.

Agreed, but that is a matter of UI, not physics. We don't have to decide that part now.

[namida]

Okay so - it's a close call on the poll. Slightly in favor of it, although I note that only some of the supporters voted that they have ideas for how to use it.

Wrap would be a significant amount of effort to implement, and it definitely seems like it would be of limited use at best. On top of that, portals are looking like a strong candidate for addition as a new object type, and there is even less that would require wrap if portals are supported.

So I am ultimately making the call here - NeoLemmix is not going to be getting wrap. I realise this might be a disappointing answer, but it simply comes down to that there are more useful things to focus on.