Yippee! More Lemmings [Difficulty: Easy-Hard]

[WillLem]

To my knowledge, it hasn't been updated for NeoLemmix 12.7 yet, has it? I'm keeping 12.6.5 around to play any non-updated packs, yours being one of them.

I can confirm this pack works fine in 12.7.1, as do the replays.

Funnily enough, my intention was to make a pack that wasn't too hard. Challenging sure, but you don't need to use a lot of advanced tricks to complete the levels.

To be fair, these levels aren't too difficult to play through once you know the solution, but getting the solutions in the first place is very difficult. The levels are so intricate and a lot of them rely on a specific trick to unlock the secret. Examples would be:

Spoiler

Tricky 1 Marching in the Moonlight - knowing how to use the blockers is the secret to this one; Tricky 2 Signs to Guide You - this is a trick you yourself discovered by chance, and it's not something you'd think of straightaway by any means; Taxing 1 Cliff Diving - I had to watch your replay to know that fallers can drop into water and survive as long as they are made into swimmers on the way down!; Tarzan & Jane - knowing to make the lower-route Lemming shimmy along the bottom of the builder's steps whilst they're being built - genius!

A lot of these things may not be considered "advanced" perhaps, but they are all things that are difficult to spot even when you spend a good amount of time working your way around the level.

This isn't a complaint at all btw, and you should take all of the above as a compliment on your puzzle-making skills! I thoroughly enjoyed your pack, and I'm looking forward to your next one. Just know that you can make extremely difficult levels if you want to.

[Strato Incendus]

To be fair, these levels aren't too difficult to play through once you know the solution, but getting the solutions in the first place is very difficult. The levels are so intricate and a lot of them rely on a specific trick to unlock the secret.

Lol. No offense, but I think you haven't quite grasped the concept of a strict "puzzle" solution yet.

When faced with levels that adhere to the standard NeoLemmix philosophy, even though you can of course design your own levels according to whatever philosophy you prefer, you really need to understand a replay as a complete spoiler. Ideally, once the player knows the solution, the level shouldn't only be "not too difficult to play"; putting the solution into practice at this point should pose no challenge at all anymore - thanks to all the true-physics-, rewinding-, and framestepping features NeoLemmix offers.

In that sense, looking at the replay is not something you do to just "get a hint about the solution"; it's indeed equivalent to "giving up", "admitting defeat" to the level designer, and telling them "fair game, you've beaten me".  This is not an overstatement, as this is explicitly what some level designers are going for (IchoTolot, for example): To beat the player fair and square.

I for one like to see myself more like a Dungeon Master in a roleplaying game, whose aim is to challenge the player, but not to defeat them entirely.

In contrast to a complete replay, what you've provided in the spoiler tag here is indeed a hint - something that can help you a little step further, but doesn't spoil the entire solution yet right away. Especially your advice on "Tarzan & Jane" was very helpful! I like to use such tricks myself, but this particular one I haven't tried yet. So thanks a lot, I'll have to re-address this level again!



Overall, I still think no game outlines a strict puzzle philosophy more clearly than the Star Wars-spinoff "Pit Droids", although Lego Alpha Team is stylistically very similar. In these games, you have to plan the entire solution in advance, and once you release the crowd (i.e. what would be the lemmings in NeoLemmix), you cannot make any adjustments to your path or interfere in any other way anymore.

Lemmings was originally marketed as an "action puzzle". Games like Pit Droids remove that "action" part completely.

In NeoLemmix, obviously this can't be avoided completely, and I wouldn't want it to, either - I am still someone who likes to approach levels by trying things out in practice, rather than planning the entire solution in advance. Especially since things like timing and relative distance between lemmings are easy to misjudge. (Even in Pit Droids, you occasionally need to do a test run to find out that things don't work, and then go back to the drawing board.) But it's certainly nice to know that the levels have been created to include the option of solving them in advance, if you want to try.

[NieSch]

Update

- Levels cleansed for NeoLemmix 12.7
- Backroute fixes for: Tricky 2 (Signs to Guide You), Tricky 3 (Rough and Rocky) and Tricky 5 (Liftboy Wanted)

See the first post for the new attachment.

(Previous version was downloaded 63 times. Thanks guys! )

[NieSch]

Update

I tried to make the two Bonus levels a bit more challenging by making a few changes to the skill set and terrain of both levels.


The Amazing Rodents


The Yippee Finale

See the first post for the new attachment. (Also attached to the first post are the intended solutions.)

(The previous version of the pack was downloaded 162 times. )

[WillLem]

When faced with levels that adhere to the standard NeoLemmix philosophy, even though you can of course design your own levels according to whatever philosophy you prefer, you really need to understand a replay as a complete spoiler. Ideally, once the player knows the solution, the level shouldn't only be "not too difficult to play"; putting the solution into practice at this point should pose no challenge at all anymore - thanks to all the true-physics-, rewinding-, and framestepping features NeoLemmix offers.

This is why I try to design levels which are more action-oriented as well as puzzle-based. NeoLemmix does remove a lot of this element of the gameplay, which is fine, but there are ways to re-introduce some action element. I'm just learning to get the balance between what's tasteful (for example, having to time a walker to stop a glider-platformer so they glide off at the right time) and what's plain annoying (having to make 2 lems build up a narrow tube simultaneously).

As for what you've said about replays - it depends how much of the replay you watch, surely...? I sometimes just watch the first few actions to to get a clue as to how the rest of the level may unfold. And I only ever do this when it's a don't-even-know-where-to-start situation!

In that sense, looking at the replay is not something you do to just "get a hint about the solution"; it's indeed equivalent to "giving up", "admitting defeat" to the level designer, and telling them "fair game, you've beaten me".  This is not an overstatement, as this is explicitly what some level designers are going for (IchoTolot, for example): To beat the player fair and square.

Fair comment, this sort of competitive spirit certainly existed amongst the DMA team when they were designing the original game!

I for one like to see myself more like a Dungeon Master in a roleplaying game, whose aim is to challenge the player, but not to defeat them entirely.

I think I take a similar approach - I want people to figure out my levels, and I particularly enjoy it when someone finds a creative alternative solution or even a backroute. My new pack Lemminas has been specifically designed with multiple-possible solutions for most of the levels. There is, of course, the odd one that aims to enforce a particular solution or at least a single trick. But, I want to know that people will solve it, ultimately!

Lemmings was originally marketed as an "action puzzle"...In NeoLemmix, obviously this can't be avoided completely, and I wouldn't want it to, either - I am still someone who likes to approach levels by trying things out in practice, rather than planning the entire solution in advance. Especially since things like timing and relative distance between lemmings are easy to misjudge.

I concur - I'm definitely more of a let's-see-what-happens kind of player. I rarely use clear physics and almost never pause a level to look at the layout in the first attempt: I'll give it a go first, and then if I run into trouble I might pause it and have a look at that point.

I've been saying for a while now that I think NL should introduce some sort of "Classic Mode", which removes all convenient elements such as skill shadows, onscreen-hints, clear physics mode, animated traps and even framestepping, left/right selection and assign-whilst-pausing: I think this would be great to do even if only to see which community levels are even possible in this mode!

I have actually fashioned a version of NL which does this to some extent; there's no way to turn off clear physics and I can't figure out how to stop skill shadows, but most of the other things are just a case of either deleting the graphics or disabling all hotkeys. You can get pretty close to a "Classic Mode" by doing this. I just think it would be fun to implement as a switchable mode in-game or at least from the main menu, then we could have a challenge thread for some of the level packs designed for NL!

[NieSch]

Update

- Backroute fix for: Taxing 5 (Tarzan & Jane)

See the first post for the new attachment.

[kaywhyn]

I have finished the pack. Here is my entire replay collection for the pack. I also did an LP of the pack. Link is here: Kaywhyn's LP of Niesch's Yippee! More Lemmings. Enjoy!

Feedback on the Pack

Even for a 20 level pack, this pack is not a quick solve at all. Total time to solve the pack was about 6 hours. Pretty much all levels after the Fun rank gave me a challenge in some ways, although there were still some easy levels in the Tricky, Taxing, and Mayhem ranks. In the Fun rank, I say the hardest was Fun 2. This level is the first real puzzle after the very easy Fun 1 which is a 5-of-everything level. Since it is a really small level pack, it makes sense that the first puzzle level would be this early. I still really like the level a lot, though! Fun 5 definitely reminded me of Painless 1 from Lemmings Migration in that I still ended up struggling for about the same amount of time on each level. Honestly, I think it's a psychological thing when solving levels via LP. I likely wouldn't fumble my solutions as much if I had solved on my own off-camera. Then again, I don't mind the occasional silliness in my LPs, as I'm trying to also be entertaining while solving the levels. After all, I think LPs should be like that, since viewers are watching how someone else is solving their levels and hearing their thoughts on the solving process, and being entertaining from time to time in an LP is always a plus.

Once you get into the Tricky rank, I say there is somewhat of a jump in difficulty. This is evidenced by how I still ended up struggling with Tricky 1. I definitely had the solution, just couldn't quite get the beginning to work out the way I wanted it to when holding the crowd back. My favorite level of the rank was Tricky 2. I absolutely loved the

Spoiler

blocker turning a shimmier around trick. I honestly have never seen this shimmier interaction before, even though I have played so many shimmier levels before I played your pack. Nevertheless, I was able to figure out the trick on my own. I think it came to me while contemplating, "I need a way to turn the shimmier around." I think that's where I had the idea that the blocker had to be the answer.

I also really liked Tricky 3 a lot. Really nice 1-of-everything level that took me a while to figure out but in actuality isn't too hard. I like the solution a lot. Tricky 4 I wasn't too much of a fan due to all the fiddliness in the execution. Finally, even though Tricky 5 needed multiple videos, I still somewhat liked it. It looks quite intimidating from the very tall size of the level, but is not that hard either. The really small skillset means there aren't that many options available to try in the level, and so it doesn't take too long to stumble upon the solution.

The difficult puzzles continue with the Taxing rank. I say the hardest level in the rank is Taxing 2, with Taxing 1 probably a close second due to the puzzle and to an extent the time limit. Taxing 2 is the only other level in the pack that needed multiple videos, but luckily I was able to figure it out. It's really all about finding the most efficient route while conserving your skills as much as possible to ensure you have enough to get to the exit in the end. I say the most difficult button to get to is the one at the very top. Taxing 3 wasn't too bad, although I initially thought it was a bit unfair due to how the timing of catching the bottom lemmings is too tight. Turns out it wasn't as tight as I thought it was, perhaps due to my builder/platformer placements. Other than that part, it wasn't too hard of a level. For sure my favorite level of the rank is Taxing 5. Very nice solution, and you can even tell I was having fun with putting the lemmings in the form of characters from the movie/novel Tarzan. I called the bottom lemming Jane because of how much immediate danger that lemming is in, while the top lemming is of course Tarzan. It was initially a hard level, but once I figured out the first shimmier usage the rest was easy.

Finally, for Mayhem I must say that the levels in the rank were easier than some of the levels in earlier ranks. There wasn't really any level that stood out to me as very hard, but I would say the hardest in the rank was Mayhem 4, with Mayhem 2 probably a close second for hardest. I might had ended up backrouting Mayhem 4, though. The only hard part is the start, but after you figure out how to stop them from being in any danger, the rest of the level is somewhat easy. I do have a stacker leftover, though. I absolutely loved Mayhem 1 due to how the level title makes a reference to the mathematical theorem. I'm a math person, and I happen to be a math teacher, so I very well know it refers to the Pythagorean Theorem. The level itself is very similar to the Just a Minute levels from the original Lemmings. I also really liked Mayhem 3. Probably the easiest level in the entire rank. The solution doesn't take too much thought at all. Finally, Mayhem 5 is far from being the hardest level of the entire pack. It is difficult, but I think the hardest part is figuring out how to use the builders and avoiding the fire traps. Builders may be plentiful, but they surprisingly run out fast, and I ended up using all of them.

Even the two Bonus levels weren't that hard. I absolutely loved the design of the levels, though, especially Bonus 1. I love the lemming sprites in it. The only one I'm not sure about is the far left one. Is that supposed to be a bomber in the ohno animation? Bonus 1 still ends up being somewhat difficult, but is still easier than Bonus 2. Bonus 2 is hard only because it can get very overwhelming with the huge flood of lemmings everywhere and the several splitters that send lemmings in different directions and places. Nevertheless, there's not that many skills at all, and so it doesn't take too long to figure out where the skills go. It's still not easy to figure out where they should go, though. Before I made serious attempts at solving, you can see that I first decided to let the level play itself out without doing anything to see how many actually make it home before time runs out. Close to 200. Then I slowly used the skills 1 by 1 to see how much of an improvement or non-improvement it makes. When I just used the stacker where it was placed in the level, it made it worse. It's really just a matter of determining which splitters to avoid and keeping the specialists with their own group, i.e, floaters with floaters and gliders with gliders.

Overall, this is an excellent and very well-done pack. I absolutely enjoyed playing this pack a lot and especially the challenges that await within. When I had Tricky 5 as the first level in the pack where I needed multiple videos, I started to worry that said level and later ones would get too hard for me to figure out and solve in a reasonable amount of time on-camera. Luckily, I was able to figure them all out on my own, albeit with a lot of struggling on certain levels. The video lengths still ended up being an improvement over the ones in my 2 other LPs. Still, I can work on cutting down the lengths drastically.

With all this being said, I absolutely agree with your assessment that you were trying to make not a very hard pack but a challenging one. I believe you have succeeded in this regard. There were still some tough nuts, but none were over the top hard. I also thought the pack challenged me appropriately enough that I was still able to enjoy playing it. The pack sometimes did get overwhelming, but it wasn't bad enough to make me think about what I had gotten myself into. I guess beating your pack is redemption that I wasn't able to figure out your R1 contest level. I was able to figure out the rest. I'll get your R1 level one of these days, though. I'm sure it's a level where you at first need to keep the crowd going before containing them.

Again, nice job with this pack, and I can certainly highly recommend it! If you're feeling up for it and think you can handle this, go for it. You will love the challenges within

[NieSch]

Thanks for your extensive feedback, your kind compliments and your LP videos kaywhyn! Also well done on finishing the pack.

I haven't finished watching the LP yet, but I will soon. I already saw lots of intended solutions but also quite a few "backroutes" or unintended ones. Roughly speaking: the fiddly solutions are unintended ones. (Tricky 4, Tricky 5, Taxing 1, Taxing 4.) In the first post of this topic I attached my intended solutions.

I'll make some updates soon to try and make your "fiddly solutions" impossible.

[kaywhyn]

Great to hear from you, Niesch This is definitely a great pack, and as I have said before, it might be small, but it's still tough. I didn't struggle with it as much as I thought I would, but I still enjoyed this pack very much and would highly recommend others play it if they haven't yet. Also, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying my LP of your pack. Have you considered doing such a thing as well? You seem like an extremely adept level solver yourself. Although, there's plenty of examples of people here who are great at solving but not making levels, eg, me (although I'm speaking too soon, since I have yet to get into the level making scene, therefore it's a bit premature for me to say that I'm not good at level designing, but for the most part I prefer to solve levels rather than make levels ), or vice versa.

As for what you still haven't seen, I feel like the only other level that hasn't been mentioned that needs fixing is Mayhem 4, but of course that's if you decide it indeed needs fixing after watching the rank. Of course, if you wanted to you could just simply watch the replay. All the solutions you see in the LP are the exact same solutions you see in the replay collection I attached in the previous post. That doesn't mean the LP is pointless, though. It's still fun to watch just so you can see my level solving process in action, as well as hear my thoughts From the LPs I've done so far, everyone who has seen them seems to be enjoying them. The pack authors especially have been kind enough to tell me that they're liking my LPs a lot Since my LPs are getting quite the positive reception, I have decided that I'm going to keep doing more of them. I may not be the best person at explaining things when recording, but I'm still willing to do LPs. I've never been that good at social speaking despite English being my native language, but I'm doing it because I felt like this would be a fun experience and this community could always use more LPers with audio I'm definitely enjoying myself a lot when I'm LPing, and as long as that is the case that's all that matters to me. Even better, I try to be make them entertaining too!

[NieSch]

Update

After watching kaywhyn's LP (thanks again!) I changed four levels:

Spoiler

tricky 1: placed a bit of landscape higher so that the solution is not as pixel perfect as it was
tricky 5: added a piece of steel to prevent kaywhyn's "digging all the way down" part (so that you must use the teleporter)
taxing 1: changed the cliff at the left to prevent digging down, placed steel at the bottom left and right to the large one-way-arrow mountain, locked the release rate
taxing 3: added a piece of steel to prevent bashing in a certain place (so that you must use a digger to free half of the crowd)

The updated version of the pack can be found in the first post of this thread.