Compromise: Timed and untimed bomber in same engine as 2 skills

[Ron_Stard]

I was thinking about the timed bombers (better said, the lack of them) in the modern engines for playing Lemmings (namely, NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini). Since timed and instant bombers have their respective "Fan Club", why not include both tasks in future versions of the engines, instead of choosing only one of them? This could lead to interesting levels in which the player could choose both tasks -if the designer of the level choose to offer these-, or levels with only timed bombers (or only instant bombers). And also, it would make difficult again some of the official levels.

[Proxima]

It wouldn't actually make the levels any more difficult, because we have framestepping and savestates to allow the player to redo if they make a mistake, and adjust the skill placement by exactly as much as needed. I've said this before in another topic and I'll try to dig it up for you (here it is): with NL's player-assist tools, there just isn't the same satisfaction in pulling off precision moves, so it makes sense to be consequential with that philosophy and remove execution difficulty from the game wherever possible. I sympathise with the timed bomber fans, but you can't have it both ways, and adding the timed bomber as a separate skill would not achieve anything.

[WillLem]

I quite like this idea actually, I agree that it could be interesting to have both types of bomber assignment possible in the same level! Although, I'd have to agree with Proxima that the other player-assist tools in NeoLemmix make the idea of timed bombers somewhat redundant.

Sure, the player would still have to figure out the exact spot to assign the bomber relative to where they want it to explode. However, framestepping would basically reduce this to an awkward, unenjoyable trial-and-error scenario rather than truly re-introducing the excitement of placing a timed bomber correctly in real-time.

I've said this to ericderkovits recently as well: I think it's worth continuing to campaign for these elements to be re-introduced to SuperLemmini (along with the ability to disable framestepping, assign-whilt-paused, and any other player-assists that Tsyu happens to implement in the future), in order that SL has its own "Classic Mode", in which the game can be played with its original execution difficulty whilst also having pleasing graphics and level editing capabilities. This would make it a viable, attractive alternative to NeoLemmix and the two could then coexist harmoniously, with respect to each other's differing philosophies.

Tsyu has indeed confirmed that he's interested in taking SuperLemmini in this direction, so this is probably where "fans" of that style of gameplay ought to focus their attention in terms of a modern engine which encourages and supports it. I just hope Tsyu makes more appearances on the forums in the near future...

[IchoTolot]

Every version of the original game and a bunch of custom engines still have timed bombers. If people want to use them they should stick to them.

NL and Lix for example specifically strayed away from the execution difficulty in favor of puzzle difficulty. It is just unconsequential to go back to timed bombers following that philosophy.

You can't create something that pleases everyone. Never even try that, but if you try that you will just create an huge mess of a game with thousands of options nobody can see through anymore and new players are just lost.

Meanwhile players need to figure out if content contains elements that they want to avoid, because everything is possible. It's not about the "Fan Club", it's about basic game design. Don't try to be everything!

If you want to have timed bombers, play versions/engines that support them. There are many of them out there.

Even if it's somewhat redundant to state: I am completely against providing such an option to NL and Lix. SuperLemmini on the other hand, as it's not fully devoted to puzzle difficulty and still partly relies on execution difficulty, would be more suited to such an option.

[namida]

The only puzzle value that is added by this is that level creators could then enforce "a lemming can't blow up in the first 5 seconds after it spawns".

Perhaps it has value from an execution difficulty point of view, but as execution difficulty is specifically something NeoLemmix tries to reduce, not increase, such a suggestion has no place in NeoLemmix specifically. I'll make this very clear: NeoLemmix will never get timed bombers back; not as the standard behaviour, not as a player-side option, not as a developer-side option.

Lix follows a similar philosophy in this regard - perhaps even more tightly than NeoLemmix does (in particular, there's a big difference when it comes down to "fairly simple to implement cosmetic features that are nice to have but not critical"; Lix is likely to say "minimize complexity, cull / don't add it" whereas NeoLemmix is more likely to say "sure, why not") - and I doubt you'll see this there either.

For SuperLemmini, timed bombers could fit, but I also get the impression Tsyu isn't even remotely considering additional skills - so it would have to be on the basis of "it reverts to timed bombers", or perhaps "the content's creator can pick one or the other, but not mix them". (Of course, I might be wrong and Tsyu might be willing to do such a thing - you'd have to ask him.)

[WillLem]

a bunch of custom engines still have timed bombers

Examples? I'm only aware of Lemmix/NeoLemmix, Lix and Lemmini/SuperLemmini as current examples...

NL and Lix for example specifically strayed away from the execution difficulty in favor of puzzle difficulty... SuperLemmini on the other hand, as it's not fully devoted to puzzle difficulty and still partly relies on execution difficulty, would be more suited to such an option.

Yes, exactly. This is my point: I think SL should boost this aspect of its design, and Tsyu is already talking about doing so. This, along with a dedicated level editor, would make it a strong alternative to NeoLemmix (whilst still meaning that players would have reasons to use both). The two already sit side-by-side on my taskbar (along with NL 1.43!)

[ericderkovits]

I think if timed bombers aren't going to be an option in neolemmix, then why not just make a 2nd customized neolemmix engine. Eric Lang has one for the lemmix engine. Also people who don't like timed bombers don't have to use the customized one. Because sometime people like to play the original lemmings games using the original timed bombers. The main neolemmix player can stay the way it is. Just make a customized one also.

[ccexplore]

This is just as much work as making it an option, when NeoLemmix already made the decision to go from timed to untimed bombers a long while back, that the community had voted in favor of.  Plus you won't be able to solve levels that require bombing something in first 5 seconds of level in such a customized engine.  And generally speaking, the levels in NeoLemmix won't be designed with timed bombers in mind anyhow.  Also, the free use of framestepping will still take out a lot of the execution difficulties that timed bombers may have provided in the original games, so it's a little pointless in that way.

[Proxima]

That said, it's open source so anyone who wants to make a modified version can do so.

[Ron_Stard]

That said, it's open source so anyone who wants to make a modified version can do so.

That's totally true. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to understand programming language, nor to change it to produce a expected and desired behaviour. However, I know this sounds like an excuse for not even trying to toy around with the code.

[WillLem]

I'll say it again: anyone who's in favour of timed bombers, no skill shadows, or any kind of execution-based play that NeoLemmix no longer supports should focus their efforts on encouraging Tsyu to implement such features in SuperLemmini. Head over to this topic or even this topic and make your thoughts known: Tsyu is a great guy and will respond eventually, particularly if he sees that more people are interested.

SuperLemmini is a great platform for the original game: it uses WinLemm's lush hi-res graphic set and couples it with an engine that's about as close to the Amiga version as any clone that I've ever seen. With more support from those of us in the community that enjoy playing the original game as intended, SuperLemmini could go from strength to strength and become even better.

Let NeoLemmix be what it is: an increasingly unique development of the game for versatile custom content, and a more modernised gameplay style. What it lacks in nostalgia it more than makes up for in originality. It takes a lot of strong community consensus to get anything changed in NeoLemmix anyway.