Upward Digging: Relevance, Required Effort, and Alternatives

[Strato Incendus]

This idea came up as a part of the major discussion about Lemmings 2: The Tribes skills in NeoLemmix in general, but in order to separate it from the bunch of L2-skills that can usually only be justified with "I find them kinda cool", I think this special issue deserves its own dedicated thread.

NeoLemmix has done a great job over the years at allowing Lemmings to go into every direction with both creative and destructive skills. Gone are the days were you need to have a lemming constantly bumping his head against a ceiling due to building, when all you actually want to do is build a horizontal platform. Gone are the days of always having to send a climber ahead and mine down if you want to create a walkable slope through a section of terrain - the Fencer is there for you, and actually allows the opposite type of puzzle as well (send a Glider or Floater ahead and free the crowd from below). Thanks to the Shimmier, Lemmings can now move below terrain as easily as they can move on top of terrain. And while too many options can always break a level by introducing a background, the mere existence of a skill itself is never at a danger to do so - only a skill provided in the wrong context can create a shortcut, and then again, that's true for effectively every skill.

When thinking of a matrix of "direction of movement" put up against "destructive" and "creative" skills, there are only three things remaining that Lemmings can't do:
- build straight down (to e.g. create a climbable wall or stop a crowd at a lower elevation from falling off a platform)
- build down diagonally (to allow lemmings from a lower level to walk up, or create a bridge that doesn't automatically bring a crowd from above into danger of splatting)
- dig upward

The upward digger seems to be the biggest unoccupied niche in level design here to me. The reason being: The Platformer already eliminates many of the problems the Builder originally had, like inevitably creating splat height after covering a long horizontal distance and requiring additional builder staircases as "splatforms" below as a consequence. If a horizontal platform still ends up too high above a lower platform, the Stoner helps to cover the remaining distance.

The only type of level I see remaining for both "straight-down" and "diagonal" builders is what I would summarise as "Rapunzel levels" (a Lemming or crowd from above gets the crowd from below up by creating terrain, rather than by mining, as it is commonplace).



Upward digging, in contrast, can be useful to both Lemmings from above and below, and also opens up many new interesting challenges, depending on how the digging would be executed. Starting from something we already know, I think there are three skills from Lemmings 2: The Tribes that could do the job. These are pretty much mutually exclusive, since we usually don't consider adding anything to NeoLemmix that only provides a minor difference to an already-existing skill (the smallest difference in my view being the one between Stoners and Stackers, currently).

Those three potential upward-diggers are:
- Laser Blaster
- Twister
- Magno Booter (Lemmings 2) / Gravity-Reversal object (Lemmings Revolution)


The core difference between the Laser Blaster and the Twister would of course be:

With the Laser Blaster, the Lemming remains in place, and terrain can be removed at a large distance. As such, the Laser Blaster is part of an overarching group of skills from L2 that could create or destroy terrain from the distance (Bazooka, Mortar, Archer, Thrower etc.). Mainy players find this use somewhat limited, as a lot of Laser Blaster levels merely consist of getting the Laser Blaster below the crowd and freeing them from below. However, with the shaft being straight, obviously it could also be used by a Climber. In such a case, the main challenge would be how to actually get a Climber to the Laser-Blaster shaft in the first place, since not even the Laser Blaster himself actually ever got close to the ceiling the Climber is supposed to climb into. Another thing is that the ridiculous fall height in Lemmings 2 often makes Laser-Blaster usage a lot easier than it should be: In NeoLemmix, with the standard fall height of 64 pixels, many drops the Laser Blaster creates will be too high, and thus will require additional skills, like Stoners, rather than auto-solving the level by itself.

The Twister, in contrast, moves the Lemming that destroys the terrain along with itself. In Lemmings 2, the Twister is mainly used for purposes for which we resort to the Fencer, given that the Fencer in L2 barely moves upwards at all. The lack of a genuine upward Miner is one of the greatest weaknesses of Lemmings 2 in my opinion, because the Twister requires the fan and thus is a nightmare to execute. In NeoLemmix, fortunately, we have a properly diagonal-moving Fencer already, and as such, we'd only need the Twister to go up vertically. This is something that the L2 Twister cannot do, obviously, because it falls straight down again. That said, there are other L2 skills that defy gravity, such as the Jet Pack and the Superlemming.
An upward digger that takes the Lemming along with it - which would indeed be more true to the original Digger - would have to move the Lemming enough pixels to the side in whatever direction its facing, to prevent it from falling down the shaft he just created again right away.

The Magno-Booter would definitely be the most versatile, but therefore probably also the hardest skill to program: It's a skill that allows Lemmings to walk on walls and ceilings. As such, it combines aspects from both the Climber and the Shimmier. The L2 Magno-Booter is pretty much just a surrogate for them, because you can't actually assign any skills to a Lemming while he's walking around in boots, at least not while he's attached to a wall or ceiling.
The Gravity-Reversal object from Lemmings Revolution accomplishes the same thing - Lemmings walking upside-down - but the direction can only be reversed in the specific spot where these objects are located. Since these upside-down Lemmings are regular Walkers, they can do anything a normal Walker could do as well - not only digging into the ceiling, but also mining, therefore acting like a Fencer, or even building.
This means that the Magno-Booter or Gravity-Reversal tool would not only fill the gap of the upward digger, but also of the downward Builder at one fell swoop.
At the same time, it would eliminate the question of "How do I actually get a Lemming to access a shaft created by an upward Digger from below, e.g. for climbing?"
A Magno-Booter would simply continue to walk from the ceiling onto the wall of the shaft, and then walk up the shaft.
A gravity-reversed Lemming, in contrast, would walk along the ceiling until he reaches the shaft and then fall into it, possibly splatting when hitting the next ceiling if the distance is 64 pixels or more.


As I just outlined in another thread, I think that due to the introduction of the 10-skills-panel, NeoLemmix has space for a 20th skill, rounding out 2x10 after the Jumper has been introduced.

But I'm torn about which of these three I'd like to see the most, especially being aware that they are so similar that they would most likely be mutually exclusive, because with either of them introduced into NeoLemmix, the other two can't really justify their existence.

I do think the Magno-Booter offers the most potential, while the Laser Blaser might just appeal to people because of the idea and the name.

That said, if a behaviour similar to that of the Magno-Booter can also be accomplished by introducing a new object (the Gravity-Reversal object), rather than a new skill, that would theoretically free up the slot for the 20th skill for either the Laser Blaster or the Twister.

Any thoughts on this?

And just to be clear: This is nothing but very, very early brainstorming. I'm not urging namida to add anything more to NeoLemmix, since he's currently already introducing new features into the game at such an incredible rate that, if I didn't know better, I would believe he had become a NeoLemmix developer full-time...

[ccexplore]

I think I'd vastly prefer gravity reversal to be added before adding any of the other skills mentioned, simply because it effectively immediately opens up new uses for many of the existing skills.

The magno booter is less interesting (and certainly does nothing about "upward digging") if you can only assign skills to it while upright.  But once you allow skill assignments in other orientations, it basically becomes another variation of gravity reversal--instead of changing orientation at specific locations, it changes orientation whenever you walk into a corner, and it allows 90-degree orientation changes instead of just 180-degree (though you can certainly design gravity reversal objects to support 90-degree changes as well, maybe then you won't call it "reversal" per se).

Instead of drawing only from skills in the official game, you could imagine inventing a new upward digging skill not directly copying from any existing skills, one that acts more like a literal upward digger.  You could potentially require its use only while shimmying on a ceiling already, or climbing towards one.  Maybe you could also allow it to start from walking/other actions if the ceiling is already low enough.  The upward digging skill would effectively let the lemming also climb up the shaft it is creating, but would not be a permanent climber skill.  To differentiate it a little more, maybe you can even allow changing to another digging skill like basher or fencer, unlike regular climbers.

[Strato Incendus]

Sure, one could also name this skill in an entirely new way. Given that we already significantly changed the behaviour of the Fencer, and, by extension, the (Hang) Glider - compared to Lemmings 2, that is - I thought the Twister might provide a fitting animation for the upward digger if we decide for the option that takes the lemming with it.

One alternative name I could imagine is "Driller": The Lemming stands on the ground beneath a ceiling, pulls out a drill that he puts up against the ceiling if it's low enough, and then he holds on to that drill as it pulls him upward through the terrain.

With no ground under the Driller at any time, much like with the Shimmier, assigning a Walker to him would simply turn him back into a Faller.

I haven't actually tried out yet whether Shimmiers can be cancelled with Blockers. My guess is no. In this case, we'd run into somewhat of an inconsistency with the upward Digger, because regular Diggers can be cancelled with Blockers if they have no ground under them. So it would be confusing for player expectations, depending on whether the player expects the Driller to go along with the Shimmier or with the Digger.

When a Driller finds no terrain to destroy above him anymore, he continues to move up eight more pixels - i.e. his own height - plus X pixels to the side he's looking into, where X is half the width of the shaft he just created (I suggest for simplicity's purposes that this shaft should look identical to the shaft a digger would create).

Of course, this would potentially allow to abuse the Driller as a Jumper, by assigning one to a lemming standing on the ground without any ceiling above him. But I doubt it would be much more useful than trying to abuse a Shimmier as a Jumper, which is possible if that Shimmier is also a Glider.

The upward digging skill would effectively let the lemming also climb up the shaft it is creating, but would not be a permanent climber skill.

Yes, indeed - I hadn't thought about that yet! That means it should probably not be possible to start digging upward into a wall you're approaching from the side. With regular Diggers, this is possible - you can use just tiny stripes of terrain to get a Digger down this way, even if the centre of the Lemming doesn't have any ground underneath it. These are also the cases where you can cancel a Digger with a Blocker and turn the lemming into a Faller.

While it would be consistent to allow such behaviour for an upward Digger, too, this would also make the upward Digger more powerful than the climber, in that it could go up any wall, even such that have a completely irregular shape - the only difference to the Climber being of course the factor that it's non-permanent, and that it destroys terrain. However, with the setup I just mentioned, not only could the amount of terrain destroyed be reduced to a minimum - the Digger would also enable regular Climbers to follow him in an instant. This is precisely what we want the skill to do, on the one hand - but most likely starting from a ceiling, not from a regular wall that Climbers can simply approach from the side and climb up.

[ccexplore]

The upward digging skill would effectively let the lemming also climb up the shaft it is creating, but would not be a permanent climber skill.

Yes, indeed - I hadn't thought about that yet! That means it should probably not be possible to start digging upward into a wall you're approaching from the side. With regular Diggers, this is possible - you can use just tiny stripes of terrain to get a Digger down this way, even if the centre of the Lemming doesn't have any ground underneath it. These are also the cases where you can cancel a Digger with a Blocker and turn the lemming into a Faller.

Well, you could make it more basher-like in that whenever there are insufficient material being removed, the skill stops afterwards.  The lemming could then climb up only if it's a sufficiently short way to the top, otherwise it turns and falls.

And actually the digger behavior you are seeing in NeoLemmix is somewhat unique to DOS Lemmings.  In other ports like Amiga etc., the digger cannot go on with quite as little terrain as you can in DOS version.  They still don't need all 9 pixels but it's not like in DOS, where even a single lone pixel on the sides is enough to keep digger going.

[Dullstar]

I haven't actually tried out yet whether Shimmiers can be canceled with Blockers. My guess is no. In this case, we'd run into somewhat of an inconsistency with the upward Digger, because regular Diggers can be canceled with Blockers if they have no ground under them. So it would be confusing for player expectations, depending on whether the player expects the Driller to go along with the Shimmier or with the Digger.

I just tested what happens with an interaction between a shimmier and a blocker. The shimmier turns around, which is what I expected.

[namida]

And actually the digger behavior you are seeing in NeoLemmix is somewhat unique to DOS Lemmings.  In other ports like Amiga etc., the digger cannot go on with quite as little terrain as you can in DOS version.  They still don't need all 9 pixels but it's not like in DOS, where even a single lone pixel on the sides is enough to keep digger going.

If my understanding of Amiga physics is correct, NeoLemmix's digger is closer to that than it is to the DOS one. The outermost pixel on each side is not checked during the "stop or keep going?" check.

I haven't actually tried out yet whether Shimmiers can be canceled with Blockers. My guess is no. In this case, we'd run into somewhat of an inconsistency with the upward Digger, because regular Diggers can be canceled with Blockers if they have no ground under them. So it would be confusing for player expectations, depending on whether the player expects the Driller to go along with the Shimmier or with the Digger.

I just tested what happens with an interaction between a shimmier and a blocker. The shimmier turns around, which is what I expected.

Strato is talking about a different behaviour here, I think - and such behaviour definitely should not extend to shimmiers.

Assign a digger such that, at some point, he'll have no terrain immediately under him, but just some slightly to either side to keep him going. One way to set this up is to, in a level in a straight-edged graphic set, assign a builder at the very last pixel before a drop, then dig after the lemming steps onto the first brick. Once the aforementioned situation arises, assign a blocker to this digger. The digger transitions to a blocker (basic rule: "Blocker can be assigned to a digger"), then immediately does what blockers do when they have no terrain right under them. This is a relatively uncommon trick, but it's seen use in several levels (and challenge solutions) by now.

A similarly unusual result can be had by assigning a bomber or stoner to such a digger, instead of a blocker. Because the basic rule is "diggers do ohno before exploding", they will go through the "ohno". Ohnoers will fall if there's no terrain under them, so the was-digger will explode on the ground below, not where he was when the skill was assigned (or if the fall is very far, he'll explode in midair; or if he hits an object that removes the lemming from the level, he'll be removed by that without exploding first).

[ccexplore]

If my understanding of Amiga physics is correct, NeoLemmix's digger is closer to that than it is to the DOS one. The outermost pixel on each side is not checked during the "stop or keep going?" check.

Ah ok, I didn't realize NeoLemmix had changed it from DOS behavior, my bad.

[Strato Incendus]

A similarly unusual result can be had by assigning a bomber or stoner to such a digger, instead of a blocker. Because the basic rule is "diggers do ohno before exploding", they will go through the "ohno". Ohnoers will fall if there's no terrain under them, so the was-digger will explode on the ground below, not where he was when the skill was assigned (or if the fall is very far, he'll explode in midair; or if he hits an object that removes the lemming from the level, he'll be removed by that without exploding first).

Ah, namida... stop giving me ideas involving stupid tricks with Oh-Noers... The only one I tried was trying to exploit Oh-Noers to avoid splatting, like in Lemmings Revolution - but I discarded that idea because Oh-Noers can't actually fall as far as splat height before exploding. Now you've shown me two examples on the same day where Oh-Noers can be used for tricks...

Spoiler

So, if you ever see a Digger moving towards a thin stripe of terrain covered deliberately in one-way-up arrows, separated by steel pieces to prevent the Digger from digging all the way down to the one-way terrain... you know what to do!

Strato is talking about a different behaviour here, I think - and such behaviour definitely should not extend to shimmiers.

Indeed - I guess it's simply not possible to assign Blockers to Shimmiers at all? I think I even asked this in the "Anticipated Shimmier behaviour" thread: Shimmiers, like any other skill, can be cancelled by Walkers, however, due to Shimmiers not having ground beneath them, based on the Digger's behaviour, one would consider that they can be cancelled both with Walkers and with Blockers.

Then again, there are other skills that don't have ground underneath them (Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer), and none of them can be made into Blockers either, so I guess those are the skills the Shimmier is consistent with.

For the upward Digger - I'm going to continue to call him "Driller" for the time being, to clearly identify a skill that takes the lemming with it, in contrast to the Laser Blaster - we would run into slightly more consistency issues, especially the more similar the tunnel looks to that of a Digger. One could easily make the case that, just like Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, and Shimmier, it should simply not be possible to assign a Blocker to a Driller. But the direct comparison to the Digger, with which you can do that, would still lead players to expect this to be possible.

I guess we should stop calling the skill "upward Digger" early on, then, and possibly also discard my initial suggestion of having the shaft look identical to that of a Digger. After all, a Miner's and a Fencer's tunnel are also clearly distinguishable, maybe not by their angle, but by their width.

I can see a case being made for the Driller's tunnel to be more narrow than the Digger shaft, as well - among others, because it would reduce the necessity for the Driller to move that far to the side once he's finished. If the shaft is only as wide as a single lemming, one would barely notice the sideward movement.

Shaft width is also relevant in other regards - for example, a Miner's and a Basher's tunnel can both be shimmied through, a Fencer's tunnel cannot.

Spoiler

I actually even have a level idea that revoles around sending a Basher down a Fencer tunnel, exploiting the Basher's "sloping" behaviour, in order to make that Fencer tunnel Shimmier-friendly . Before the introduction of the Shimmier, the only way to enforce this being necessary that I could think of was involuntarily resealing the Fencer shaft somehow, in order to make the Basher going through it even necessary. You might have guessed it: That "involuntarily resealing" part required the use of Slowfreeze.

Now Slowfreeze is gone, but we do have the Shimmier. Just by musing about this, I think I may just have discovered a way to fix one of the remaining Slowfreeze levels from Lemmings World Tour! Looks like there might be one Shimmier-level in the New-Formats version of LWT after all...

Consequently, if a Driller shaft were so narrow that it can be resealed e.g. by a Stoner, this would provide interesting new options for crowd control.

Let's say you have two crowds, and there's no way to contain the one above, because there are no Diggers. But you can send a Driller from below, creating a narrow shaft the upper crowd falls into, and rather than dropping through it all the way and splatting at the bottom, you make the first lemming that falls into the Driller shaft a Stoner. Reversed Digger pit completed!

[ccexplore]

Indeed - I guess it's simply not possible to assign Blockers to Shimmiers at all?

Blockers were never universally assignable over all circumstances even in Lemmings 1.  You can't assign to falling or floating lemmings.  Or climbing lemmings.  There are some limited cases (like the digger case being quoted) where you can indeed assign blocker to a lemming in mid-air (and not have it do much blocking since it'll revert soon), but for the most part it's clearly meant to be allowed only for lemmings doing something while standing on solid ground.

That being said, if NeoLemmix allows (I don't know if it does or not) shimmying across a vertically short enough tunnel that the lemming touches both ceiling and floor, I suppose it wouldn't be too strange to allow a blocker assignment and have the lemming (whose feet already touches ground) block.

The idea of using a blocker to cancel a skill without actually causing any or much blocking, should be considered more of a corner case that we don't want to expand upon.

[Strato Incendus]

That being said, if NeoLemmix allows (I don't know if it does or not) shimmying across a vertically short enough tunnel that the lemming touches both ceiling and floor, I suppose it wouldn't be too strange to allow a blocker assignment and have the lemming (whose feet already touches ground) block.

That's not possible because Shimmiers stop as soon as their feet touch terrain.

The idea of using a blocker to cancel a skill without actually causing any or much blocking, should be considered more of a corner case that we don't want to expand upon.

I agree, it's just that the Driller would be right in the middle between Shimmier and Digger - a non-permanent skill without ground under the lemming's feet, as it has only been the case for permanent skills (Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer) until the introduction of the Shimmier, but at the same time, a vertical destructive skill.

The main thing why this trick works with the Digger is because it is dependant on how much ground there is beneath the Digger. In case of the Driller, there will never be ground under its feet, so it would always behave the same way.

And since it's possible to assign Blockers to any other destructive skill (Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer), I don't think it would be right to simply not allow Blocker assignment to Drillers at all.

[Proxima]

I don't see the issue here. Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Shimmier, and the proposed Jumper are all movement skills. You cannot assign a blocker during atypical (non-walking) movement.

Digger, along with Basher, Miner, Fencer, Builder, Platformer, are all constructive or destructive skills. You can assign a blocker to stop any one of these performing its task, also making the lemming block.

The hypothetical Driller is clearly akin to the constructive and destructive skills and not the movement skills, so I would absolutely expect it to be possible to assign Blocker to stop a Driller, with the side effect of the lemming falling since it cannot remain a Blocker in mid-air.

[ccexplore]

I don't see the issue here. Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Shimmier, and the proposed Jumper are all movement skills. You cannot assign a blocker during atypical (non-walking) movement.

While not directly relevant since it's not NeoLemmix, I think in Lemmings 2 (with custom level, since only Classic tribe supports blockers and the official levels never use non-classical skills in that tribe) you would be able to assign a blocker to rollers for example.  Or a hopper while it's on ground.  Actually maybe I should test that and see what actually happens, hmm......

I think maybe I'll amend Proxima's suggestion slightly about constructive and destructive skills being enough of a criteria to allow blocker assignment, and consider that those skills also allow you to assign all other constructive and destructive skills as well.  So maybe the logic should consider whether we feel it makes sense to allow assigning any constructive and destructive skill to the upward "driller" lemming as well; if it does, then I suppose assigning blocker should be allowed as well, to be consistent.  Even if unlike most other constructive/destructive skills, the assigned lemming will typically not remain blocker for long for this particular new skill.

[namida]

I actually even have a level idea that revoles around sending a Basher down a Fencer tunnel, exploiting the Basher's "sloping" behaviour, in order to make that Fencer tunnel Shimmier-friendly . Before the introduction of the Shimmier, the only way to enforce this being necessary that I could think of was involuntarily resealing the Fencer shaft somehow, in order to make the Basher going through it even necessary. You might have guessed it: That "involuntarily resealing" part required the use of Slowfreeze.

One way that the forced-resealing could be done without slowfreeze, is requiring the use of a stacker at one end to create a wall a climber can go up - resealing the tunnel in the process.

A similarly unusual result can be had by assigning a bomber or stoner to such a digger, instead of a blocker. Because the basic rule is "diggers do ohno before exploding", they will go through the "ohno". Ohnoers will fall if there's no terrain under them, so the was-digger will explode on the ground below, not where he was when the skill was assigned (or if the fall is very far, he'll explode in midair; or if he hits an object that removes the lemming from the level, he'll be removed by that without exploding first).

Ah, namida... stop giving me ideas involving stupid tricks with Oh-Noers... The only one I tried was trying to exploit Oh-Noers to avoid splatting, like in Lemmings Revolution - but I discarded that idea because Oh-Noers can't actually fall as far as splat height before exploding. Now you've shown me two examples on the same day where Oh-Noers can be used for tricks...

Spoiler

So, if you ever see a Digger moving towards a thin stripe of terrain covered deliberately in one-way-up arrows, separated by steel pieces to prevent the Digger from digging all the way down to the one-way terrain... you know what to do!

You want to talk about Ohnoer tricks? Take a look at...

...some of my own levels

Fierce 1 "Dead Is The New Black" (Lemmings Plus III), Sharp 7 "Odyssey" (Lemmings Plus Omega II) or Decimation 4 "Oh Blast..." (Lemmings Plus Alpha)

...or even older...

*Not* one of my levels

Lacktardo's "Basement Trickery"