[Suggestion] Allow designers to show a skill with 0 (without pickups)

[Crane]

This is the traditionalist in me talking, but currently, NeoLemmix takes on the approach of Lemmings 2 and only shows available skills with at least 1 available use (or 0 if pickups of it are available).

I would like to request that the option of showing 0 of a skill regardless be allowed (with the characteristic blank number display rather than actually printing the number 0).  The reason being is that in some levels, especially those using the traditional 8 skills, the lack of a skill is just as important, if not more important, than what you have available.

The examples that spring to mind are "The Crankshaft" from the original game, where having no Bashers is quite important (you have 10 of everything else), "Heaven can wait (we hope!!!)", where you have no Blockers (you have 30 of everything else), and "A break in the pillar" from Revenge of the Lemmings, where you have no Builders (you have 3 of everything else).

[namida]

Moved this to the Bugs & Suggestions board, as that's the right place for it.

Although it's ultimately up to Nepster, I think it's very unlikely that this change will be reverted, as it takes the onus off the content creator to make sure the correct skills are enabled for a level - the lack of any option to display the absent skills was simply the easiest way to go about this.

A workaround that may work is to place pickup skills for the missing skills in an inaccessible area; although really, that's most likely just going to provoke people to think "there's probably a pickup skill buried in terrain somewhere", then think they've encountered a bug when clear physics mode doesn't reveal one anywhere (or if they're still inside the level boundaries, just not possible to access (or not possible to complete the level after accessing), it may provoke them to start believing all your pickup skills are decoys - of course, you could use that to your advantage).

[Crane]

I would like to say that designers should be trusted more to decide how best to present their level's skills. If they do things like hide pick-up skills or traps in the terrain, it will only serve to give them a bad reputation.

Granted, I agree with keeping the UI clean in most cases, but they're are always exceptions where breaking a rule gives an overall better presentation. Another example would be not including the "present" on top of the trapdoor in the Christmas tileset (which normally looks wrong without it) because it's already flush against a ceiling, and adding the present causes it to stick out of the floor above (my level Christmas Spirit suffers from this problem).

That's just my view though. Some restrictions are good, but other times information can be lost or buried.

[IchoTolot]

I still think only showing the skills that are actually used in a level is the right way. Showing a few more skills that are not used is just extra clutter in my opinion.

Also as namida said it makes sure that the correct skills are enabled.

the lack of a skill is just as important

Yes and that's why it is not in the skillbar. If you really want to have that skill in a level, players will notice the lack of it immidiatly.

If you want to extra highlight the fact that a skill is missing, the level name could also be used.

[Nepster]

I would like to make three more comments:
1) As namida said, having an extra check-box in the editor to select the skills that should be present is a very bad UI. At least I tended to rage about it privately, especially when I accidentally selected 9 skills and then one skill was suddenly missing when playtesting (and yes, the old editor allowed such things). While other solutions are possible, I found the "select all with at least one skill" to be the easiest - both to implement and for the user to understand.
2) When playing levels, I find myself using the "skill 0" display in the skill bar: This tells me that I can obtain this skill via pick-up skills and that I can plan (parts) of my solution around using this skill. Thus a simply decorative "skill 0" would be misleading me.
3) I can totally understand your desire when using just the traditional skills and no pick-ups, especially in the example levels you mentioned.

Given that NeoLemmix now has to support all kinds of levels with widely varying skill set, I currently think that the advantages of the current implementation outweigh the problems with the "X-of-all-traditional-except-one" levels. In any case, there are currently more pressing issues (like the still far from finished shimmier...)

[Crane]

I understand.  Thanks Nepster.