Which pack is the next step to play?

[Strato Incendus]

I'm having somewhat of a hard time assessing the difficulty of the user-created packs relative to each other.

Packs I've solved so far:
- Lemmings Migration
- SubLems
- Snack Pack
- Yung Gotenk's pack & The Hell Pack

I guess CasuaLemmings is somewhere in between; I could solve a majority of the levels, but there always happened to be random ones in between which totally stumped me .

A Master Degree in Lemmings has me stuck at the last rank, where many levels are massive builder fests.

With SEB Lems, I got stuck somewhere in the middle of rank 3.

With the majority of the Lemmings Plus Series, it's a sudden jump for me, from 10-of-everything-any-way-you-want levels to "WTF"?

And I don't really know where to start, because as I especially noticed with the newly released Integral Lemmings, there seem to be whole subtypes of level solving approaches that I simply can't actively look for in a level's landscape. (It's a bit like "if you don't know that Nuke solutions are a thing, you don't even consider it" - just with more obscure things than the Nuke .)

So, any suggestions on what might be the next step up?

[Akseli]

Yes, this is an interesting question, and difficulty issues tend to be somewhat subjective. I've myself going through lots of main releases this autumn again to get a better perception of the current custom level design scene.

Many of the packs start of with easy levels and at the end there stand waaaay harder levels than any official Lemmings game had. Would you like to play a level pack that is easy to solve entirely, meaning that even the hardest levels aren't highly difficult? Or a pack that's moderate in difficulty most of it, even if it would have super hard levels at the end?

I actually haven't still played SubLems (I tried a bit of it), Snack Pack, Yung Gotenk's pack, CasuaLemmings or A Master Degree of Lemmings (oh my, I still have lots to check out). Lemmings Migration has a medium difficulty in my opinion, but the last half of it is moderately hard. From Lemmings Plus series, the easiest packs should be LPI, LPII and just released LPVI, of course all of these have also quite tricky individual levels there.

GigaLems I remember being from the easy side entirely. MazuLems, GeoffLems, MobiLems and DoveLems are also gentle by modern day standards (and highly recommended quality packs), and the hardest single levels in them shouldn't be overly overwhelming (this is again really hard to estimate).

After aforementioned packs, in my opinion going from easier to harder come packs like Lemmings Reunion, PimoLems, Seb Lems and NepsterLems, for example.

[Strato Incendus]

Hi Akseli, thanks for the quick response!

Would you like to play a level pack that is easy to solve entirely, meaning that even the hardest levels aren't highly difficult?

I think I've played through most of these - meaning Yung Gotenks's and nin10doadict's packs. nin10doadict, as I said, still has the occasional level in both CasuaLemmings and Lemmings Squared that stomps me. But overall, levels by these two are very generous with the skill set they give to the player. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; it just means that it's a lot easier to salvage things.

For example, many harder packs even account for the number a single lemming may turn around, meaning one turn-around too many and there's no way to save the lemming, the level fails as a consequence.
This rarely happens in CasuaLemmings or Lemmings Squared, and it never does in Yung Gotenks's packs, because there's usually an abundance of walkers, platformers, and/or builders left.

Or a pack that's moderate in difficulty most of it, even if it would have super hard levels at the end?

Yeah, I think that's more what I'm looking for . I'm fine with the last levels being zingers, and Lemmings Migration had those in spades. The earlier levels were occasionally difficult, too, but that was mainly down to me being stupid - and overlooking something hiding in plain sight; the latter levels, in contrast, actively enforced more obscure solutions.

SubLems had by far the best difficulty curve I've seen so far! It starts out really, really, easy and ends with really hard stuff.

On Nepster Lems, I got through the lower ranks quite a while ago and am now stuck somewhere around Planet-Sun (meaning there are levels from both ranks which I haven't solved yet).

Most other packs, in contrast, either seem to try to stomp the player starting from level 1 - or they disguise themselves as easy packs by starting with completely open anyway-you-want 10-of-everything-levels, only to make the first real puzzle so challenging that I get stomped right away.

GigaLems I remember being from the easy side entirely. MazuLems, GeoffLems, MobiLems and DoveLems are also gentle by modern day standards

Thanks for all those suggestions!

I just looked at my level count again and found out that MazuLems is a pack I've actually completed already - except for one level ("It's a Magical World") . This pack started out with comparatively hard levels, which intimidated me from continuing to play it for a while, but then I both heard and found out myself that the subsequent levels were a lot easier.

GigaLems is indeed comparatively easy - except for those levels with very "unergonomic" terrain shape, like "Z", which is made even more difficult through its obnoxious time limit. Also, it contains a lot of trolling elements, like hidden traps and brick-covered exits. Those are not a problem at all with clear physics mode, of course - but since GigaLems is only available for NeoLemmix 1.43, clear physics is not available .

GeoffLems, MobiLems, DoveLems and PimoLems were packs I kept jumping between a lot during the development of the Groupie rank for Lemmings World Tour. I didn't consciously notice whether PimoLems is harder than, say, DoveLems - I kept mixing up stuff from those different packs in my mind, and really had to restrain myself to one pack for a while in order to identify signature level building elements for Dodochacalo and Pieuw.

In contrast, Lemmings Reunion was among what I always considered the hardest packs in existence. I guess Lemmings Stampede also falls somewhere in there.

But with your ranking in mind, I think I'll make my list as following:
- finish Lemmings Squared
- GeoffLems
- MobiLems and/or DoveLems
- then PimoLems
- after that, possibly Lemmings Reunion


But of course, I'm still curious to hear how you guys would rank the currently existing packs by difficulty!

[Nessy]

But with your ranking in mind, I think I'll make my list as following:
- finish Lemmings Squared
- GeoffLems
- MobiLems and/or DoveLems
- then PimoLems
- after that, possibly Lemmings Reunion

I think this sounds like a solid plan. GeoffLems is indeed a great pack, and it is a very traditional type of pack with classic skills, repeats, and levels that start out easy with 20-of-everything... but don't let that fool you for the levels get much harder towards the end. There was even one level that I didn't solve until months after finishing the pack!!

MobiLems is also great and I think it is on par with GeoffLems in terms of difficulty. DoveLems I would say is a bit harder than the previous two I mentioned, although honestly I think that some final rank levels aren't as bad as some of the third rank levels and this is probably because of NeoLemmix in some cases. There are a lot of trick orientated levels as well and they are pretty good at blowing your mind.

PimoLems I'm still not 100% sure about since I haven't officially sat down and went through it on my own yet, but people have said that it starts off very easy and gets quite challenging in the end. The final rank is harder than those from DoveLems, MobiLems, and even GeoffLems.

Reunion I have started off and on and it gets quite tricky already in the 2nd rank but it's also great and I wouldn't let the difficulty of it put you off.

Other packs include Clammings which starts off easy but gets quite nasty towards the end. Deceit's Lemmings also gets challenging at the end but I would say the final rank of Clammings is a bit harder than the final rank of Deceit's Lemmings at times (although some people might disagree especially if you consider the infamous Mayhem 21 from Deceit's Lemmings)

For Lemmings Plus I have you ever tried Lemmings Plus I or II? I think those are the easiest packs and even Omega I might be manageable by you. Definitely packs like Omega II might have to wait until after Reunion to conquer according to your explanations

[namida]

For Lemmings Plus I have you ever tried Lemmings Plus I or II? I think those are the easiest packs and even Omega I might be manageable by you. Definitely packs like Omega II might have to wait until after Reunion to conquer according to your explanations

LPO isn't much harder than LPI or LPII. It felt hard at the time because it was the first major pack (and second pack full stop, after the very easy Holiday Lemmings Plus) to make use of the new skills. By today's standards, where most players are used to the new skills, LPO should be no harder than LPI or LPII overall (although I must admit Mental 29 is nastier than anything in the other two, except maybe Death Row).

[grams88]

All this talk is making me want to create a levelpack, well this time it's going to be a big one compared to packs which were only ten or twenty levels. I'm probably going to stick to the original skills for this one. Actually I tell a lie I've already started making levels up and starting to think which rank to place them in.

[Colorful Arty]

I'd highly recommend Lemmings Plus 1 to anyone who hasn't played it. It's a nice and easy pack similar to Original Lemmings, but gets a bit more difficult at the end. It also really helps you get better at using the terrain to your advantage, which I love, and does't include the crazy new skills or objects.

[Strato Incendus]

But I like the new skills and objects! ^^ That's why the later Lemmings Plus offerings were more to my taste so far, especially since they also do not start with an endless stream of X-of-everything levels which you know I despise so much.

Still, I want to finish them in order some day, so thanks for the tip! I'm starting to carefully make my way into SEB Lems again... I actually feel like Stormy is a bit easier than the second half of Revolution. The Level of the Year 2017 was a really nice breather after all the stuff that came before!

[namida]

But I like the new skills and objects! ^^ That's why the later Lemmings Plus offerings were more to my taste so far, especially since they also do not start with an endless stream of X-of-everything levels which you know I despise so much.

Still, I want to finish them in order some day, so thanks for the tip! I'm starting to carefully make my way into SEB Lems again... I actually feel like Stormy is a bit easier than the second half of Revolution. The Level of the Year 2017 was a really nice breather after all the stuff that came before!

Holiday Lemmings Plus, Lemmings Plus Omega and Lemmings Plus VI are a bit on the easier side but make use of newer features (though LPO does start off with a lot of X-of-everythings, while Holiday is only 12 levels long). Or there's always Doomsday Lemmings, though that does get quite hard towards the end.