[DISC] Time-Limit Talismans for Solution Optimization

[WillLem]

I've decided to re-start this discussion here to keep it more focused as an aspect of level design.

I agree that time limits themselves should be used sparingly, or at least creatively, to remain relevant to the puzzle's inherent solution or to prevent backroutes - I think everyone agrees on this.

However, if a level designer chooses to instead include a time-based talisman purely for the reason that it requires the player to optimize the intended solution (as opposed to find a different route), can we as an existing community reach an agreement that this is acceptable?

My main argument would be that solution optimization is a skill in itself, and whilst it may be more of an execution-based skill, it's still valid. Sure, Lemmings is a puzzle game at its core - but it's a motion-based, animated puzzle game which means that time is also a factor, and therefore applying skill to create a time record is a great way to enjoy the game.

Time-based talismans are a good way to keep this aspect of the game relevant without impacting the actual level itself (people can always ignore the talisman if they're not inclined to indulge in action/execution-based play).

Some other points in favour:

- It encourages more inclusion in the community for people that do enjoy and excel at execution-based play.
- It offers a valid alternative for level designers who wish to promote this aspect of gameplay.
- It encourages players who would normally eschew time-based play to exercise that muscle every now and then for the sake of expanding their own repertoire as a player (this is particularly relevant for completionists).

[IchoTolot]

I don't get the point of the whole discussion here

A time-limit talisman was always acceptable and drove nobody away from playing a level/pack. They are purely optional anyway.

For me personally, it's just that I found the concept of talismans themselves questionable, but that is purely a personal thing and will never be a reason why I won't play a level or dislike a level.

I just think if you are making a talisman for a level you can include the talisman from the get-go:

- Only use X ammount of that skill ---> make it mandatory in the first place or make a straight up repeat of the level in a later rank.
- Save X lems --> the same
- Timer talisman ---> either cull when it's just a slightly optimised solution or make it an own level when it totally changes up the solution.
and so on.....

I have to say here I don't really care much for your reasoning here, if you want to include them just do it, I personally don't care about talismans. In feedback cases, I will just question their existence where I see them being very close and next to redundant compared to the normal solution, but that's just me being very critical and projecting my own believes.

So go ahead include them if it makes you happy. Nobody will be driven away by them.

[WillLem]

I don't get the point of the whole discussion here

It's really to get an idea of what people's opinions are generally: since the community is indeed quite small, I just want to see what the range of viewpoints is amongst those of us who care enough to comment.

- Only use X ammount of that skill ---> make it mandatory in the first place or make a straight up repeat of the level in a later rank.

Talismans seem like a good way to prevent level repeats; I get what you mean though, if it's important to the level designer that the player find a particular solution, then perhaps this should be the level's main (or even only) solution.

I'd say I'm more a proponent of multi-solution levels though; I never really mind backroutes unless they're ridiculous (like completely bashing under or walking along the top of an entire level). So, it makes sense that I like the idea of talismans for use in cases where I'd prefer that the player aim for a particular solution, but still don't really mind if they find a completely different one. As I understand it, you're much more in favour of creating and enforcing a very specific solution, so again - makes sense that you don't really care for them.

- Timer talisman ---> ...cull when it's just a slightly optimised solution...

This is my point: I'm in favour of timer talismans being used specifically for the reason of encouraging optimised solutions.

So go ahead include them if it makes you happy. Nobody will be driven away by them.

Ace! This is good to know, thanks.

[Turrican]

First of all , I  really like talismans of any kind !  Imo , talismans is one of the best features Neolemmix introduced .

Talismans are practically challenge solutions , but for custom levels .

And which are the most popular challenges that you can find in gaming ? Speedruns ( and scoreruns too ) . There is a reason why shows like AGDQ are so popular worldwide .

The most viewed challenge solution for lemmings on youtube is Lord Tom's TAS . Also at the past Gronkling had made some really impressive TAS videos here , and the people on the Lemmings Speedrunning thread , are making great job there . I personally had made at the past , a thread highliting some TAS creators that weren't that known by the community before , and I found their TAS videos very impressve !

So my opinion about speedrun based talismans ? Go for it ! Make as many as you wish !

Things like these should not be discouraged at all . Also the challenges board should have also dedicated threads for speed records imo.

[Proxima]

Optimisation is definitely a valid part of gameplay -- that's why we have the Challenges forum. Optimisation for time is usually one of the less interesting challenges, because for many levels it does just come down to "do the same solution, placing every assignment at the earliest frame that doesn't fail the level due to a lemming arriving somewhere too early"; also because getting an exact time is a lot more work, whereas with skill count optimisation, a lot more of the play time is spent on the interesting part of thinking about and looking for more optimal solutions. But there certainly are levels for which time optimisation is an interesting challenge -- and if you happen to have made one, then by all means add a talisman for it.

Thing is though, after solving a level, NL displays the time taken and tracks your record. So in most cases, you don't need to add talismans for time -- players who want to optimise for time can do so anyway. To my mind, adding a talisman for time (just like adding one for skills or lemmings saved) is a way of signalling to the player, "Optimising this aspect is especially interesting on this level." If the player trusts you and follows up on this, and it turns out to be just a matter of doing the same solution but inputting skills as early as possible, then the player is likely to feel disappointed. You don't have to have a talisman on every level.

[WillLem]

First of all , I  really like talismans of any kind !  Imo , talismans is one of the best features Neolemmix introduced .

Agreed! Talismans are indeed one of NeoLemmix's many great features.

And which are the most popular challenges that you can find in gaming ? Speedruns ( and scoreruns too )... The most viewed challenge solution for lemmings on youtube is Lord Tom's TAS... and the people on the Lemmings Speedrunning thread , are making great job there

I love a good speedrun, they're very entertaining to watch!

Solution-optimisation is slightly different from speedrunning in that the point of it is to perform an intended/fair solution in the most efficient way, rather than find a way to bypass it or make use of glitches/computer-assistance/backroutes to find the fastest possible way to complete a level.

However, a lot of the motivations to create records are the same, hence why I thought I might find support for the idea from the speedrunning part of the community.

So my opinion about speedrun based talismans ? Go for it ! Make as many as you wish !

Thanks! I only hope that speedrunners find my time-based talismans challenging enough!

Things like these should not be discouraged at all . Also the challenges board should have also dedicated threads for speed records imo.

This is a good idea, let's start one...

[WillLem]

Optimisation is definitely a valid part of gameplay

To my mind, adding a talisman for time (just like adding one for skills or lemmings saved) is a way of signalling to the player, "Optimising this aspect is especially interesting on this level." If the player trusts you and follows up on this, and it turns out to be just a matter of doing the same solution but inputting skills as early as possible, then the player is likely to feel disappointed. You don't have to have a talisman on every level.

I think this is the main lesson I have to learn from this: I need to be more creative about when to apply time-based optimisation talismans, or work it into the design of the level a bit more. All a learning experience.

In the case of Lemminas, my goal was to have a talisman for every level because it's the first pack to do so. However, the flipside of this achievement is that, of course, some of the talismans are going to feel somewhat irrelevant or will be achieved simply by solving the level by its intended solution. EDIT - that said, I'd say the majority of talismans in Lemminas are interesting and challenging to get, going on feedback and my own honest opinion!

I'm leaving the pack as it is in this regard, because there are more important changes that need to be made to it, but certainly for future packs I'll use talismans more creatively.

[namida]

I have no problem with them existing, but if I don't have any reason to believe they're an interesting challenge (rather than just "optimize the normal solution"), I probably won't bother to get them myself. And continuing from this - if a pack has frequent time-based talismans that are just that; then when one comes that is actually interesting, I probably won't even notice because by that point I've stopped paying attention to time-based talismans in that pack.

[ccexplore]

Solution-optimisation is slightly different from speedrunning in that the point of it is to perform an intended/fair solution in the most efficient way, rather than find a way to bypass it or make use of glitches/computer-assistance/backroutes to find the fastest possible way to complete a level.

To be clear though, a time limit wouldn't do anything though when it comes to people bypassing a solution via glitches or backroutes, you'd still have to fix the backroute or the glitch to make it not happen.  And not sure what you mean by "computer assistance".  If you are referring to use of framestepping and similar tools, how do you know someone can't execute a solution without using those features given enough practice?  In a lot of games, tool-assisted speedruns actually tend to help with human-executed speedruns as well, with the tool assistance conclusively proving that something is really possible, and then the human goes about practicing the execution required.

Also, in many other games, speedrunning generally have multiple variants to account for things like glitches.  For example, a game that has a major glitch allowing one to skip almost from start of first level right to the ending, there will of course be a speedrun category where there are no rules and allow for such shortcuts as record solutions.  But there'll probably one or more other categories/variants that disallow the use of that particular glitch, or one that specifies all the levels must be played through.

I think the biggest disadvantage Lemmings-style games have when it comes to speedrunning, is that the game just isn't very speedy like your typical action/platformer games.  Speedrunning-level execution on those types of games generally require very good reflexes and quick fingers, and this is where the excitement primarily comes from for both the player and the spectators.  Lemmings on the other hand, typically wouldn't really involve such things even when you are executing an optimized solution.  If it's really just about finding the earliest time to release the crowd for example, once you worked that out for a level, there isn't much excitement left to execute or watch someone execute that timing.  This is why in Lemmings, speedrunning only becomes more interesting for most people when it also involves actually doing something more than what you typically do in solving the level, so that the time record solution actually features some novel actions (which often don't have to be glitches or backroutes), rather than merely the exact same actions as your typical solution just done at the correct times.

Things like these should not be discouraged at all .

To be clear, I don't recall there ever been a public discussion here about time limit talismans.  WillLem is the first person who brought it up, seemingly in the context of someone (in the singular probably, I emphasize) privately giving some criticism about his inclusion of such in a level.  I don't see that as being discouraged, unless you insist that every single criticism, even when only been voiced once by one person privately, is "discouragement".  As I said, you can't please everyone all the time, this is a fact of life even outside of this forum.  It is accurate to say that the popularity and intensity of objections to time-limit talismans had been far, far lower/quieter compared to something like use of hidden traps in levels, even before WillLem started this thread.  (If you disagree, please point me to some past posts and threads that even touched on time-limit talismans.)

[namida]

To be clear though, a time limit wouldn't do anything though when it comes to people bypassing a solution via glitches or backroutes, you'd still have to fix the backroute or the glitch to make it not happen.

This isn't completely true - there have been many cases where time limits have been used to prevent backroutes, because the backroute takes longer than the time limit allows for. This is even often given as an example of a good use case for a time limit. Likewise, the same concept can definitely apply to "multiple known and accepted solutions exist, but only one of them fits within the time" for a talisman - see Sharp 19 "Struck Out" of Lemmings Plus Omega II for an example of this.

[ccexplore]

Ok, that's true.  Although if the backroute is severe enough, you probably would put the time limit in the level itself instead of merely as a talisman.

[Dullstar]

If it just involves doing the same solution you normally would, but faster, I don't really see the point in including them, as it won't really add anything. If you want to TAS levels, you don't need the talisman telling you to do it. If it actually requires putting some thought into a faster solution to the level, then it could be worthwhile - but, in that case, it may be worth considering including it as a standalone level later on!

I don't use talismans in the limited number of levels I've released, but I've got a small pack I've slowly been putting together (there aren't any threads on the forums about it, so don't bother looking) that uses them if I find a backroute that's harder than the intended solution but also not worth making into a separate level.