[NO-CHANGE] [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Diggers and one way left/right arrows

[Wafflem]

If a basher cannot bash through one-way-down arrows, why can a digger dig through the one way left/right arrows?

Again, if this is changed so that diggers cannot dig through one way left/right arrows, this will break a lot of levels, so this really needs discussion.

I won't mind if this doesn't get changed. I just wanted to see others' thoughts on this.

[IchoTolot]

This is used sooo often! A clear no from me here!   

I think this behavior is even more often used than one-way-down arrows overall. The one-way-downs are a bit weird in general and I never really used them so far.

This one-way-left/right + digger behavior is pretty logical in general for me and I would rather scrap the one-way-down arrows than this behavior to be honest.

And to be fair this inconsistancy here doesn't really seem much of a problem to me and I would simply leave it. Nothing really would be gained at a cost of quite a lot of levels!

[ccexplore]

If a basher cannot bash through one-way-down arrows, why can a digger dig through the one way left/right arrows?

I would actually turn this around and question why bashers cannot bash through one-way-down arrows.  It might well be that it has proven more useful or less backroute-prone to disallow, but otherwise I definitely would've expected one-way-down to have no effects on bashers in the same way that one-way-left/right have no effect on diggers.

(And even if it has proven to be problematic, it seems the sensible solution is just to overlap one-way-down with one-way-left/right if you want to prevent both bashing and digging.  You end up with something that's almost steel but is still bombable.)

[IchoTolot]

Some further analysis from the IRC discussion over general inconsistancys with the arrows:

<IchoTolot>normally with the right left arrows   just the opposite direction is forbidden
<IchoTolot>and miners count too
<IchoTolot>as they also can face the wrong way
<Proxima>Hmm. Out of 5 possible digging directions, left, right and down OWWs all forbid exactly 2
<Proxima>I like that symmetry
<IchoTolot>down   -   pure left/right
<IchoTolot>left  -   pure right/  diagonal right
<IchoTolot>and the same with right
<IchoTolot>with left-right they interact with the clear 180 degree opposit though
<IchoTolot>down just with the  pure 90 degree stuff
<SimonN>OWWs are a fractal source of design decisions. You solve one question, two more come up. I don't want that >_>
<IchoTolot>so down is the inconsistancy here
<Proxima>True. If upwards and diagonally upwards digging existed, for consistency left/right OWWs would permit up and diagonally up in the facing direction, down OWWs would forbid all three, so symmetry is broken
<Nepster>But diagonally upwards exists: Bashers may step up terrain
<SimonN>The Lix way is to put lots of this annoying steam to make one-way doors :>
<IchoTolot>my vote: Let everything be as it is or (if somebody 100% wants a change) remove downward-arrows
<Proxima>I agree, Icho

So the inconsistant behavior lies in the downward-arrows and not in the left/right ones. If there should be a change it should be there, as it would also be where the least ammount of levels is in the crossfire.

[Proxima]

To clarify: clearly the behaviour is not "symmetrical" strictly, in that the behaviour of a left or right OWW does not become the behaviour of a down OWW when rotated. However, there is a combinatorial symmetry: of the eight main directions, only five are valid digging directions, and each type of OWW permits three and forbids two. This makes each type an interesting game element.

If down OWWs had no effect on bashers, they would be identical to normal walls

An overlap of left and down (or right and down) OWW would still permit digging, and mining in one direction. An overlap of left and right OWWs would still permit digging -- this was used quite a bit back in the days of Cheapo.

Anyway, I'm strongly in favour of leaving the OWW behaviour as it is.

[ccexplore]

If down OWWs had no effect on bashers, they would be identical to normal walls

Oops, I guess I was thinking of up OWWs.

I also realized just now overlapping the arrows are bad visual representation, since the arrow actually shows the allowed direction rather than the forbidden one.

[mobius]

hold on... I don't want to be so quick to consider removing downward arrow walls. This is the only way to prevent bashing; a new feature which hasn't been used much because it's still new. Being able to prevent things like this is useful.

I don't think there's much inconsistency for now, until, say in the future something like gravity changing is introduced. Then we'd have issues.

And even more useful but weird/[take more getting used to] feature would be a more detailed form of wall that dictates only certain skills being used in specific directions.
For example; arrows pointing south west, allowing only mining in that direction. A wall allowing bashing in either direction but nothing else.

I want to hear more discussion encouraging new features, not stopping them! I'm bored with old Lemmings.

[ccexplore]

I believe it's not so much that the concept of one-way-down walls (that is, the concept of a wall that must be dug or bombed away) are bad, just that the visual representation of it can be a little confusing to the uninitiated, since based on the arrows alone it is a little unclear what exactly are allowed and not allowed.  Functionally it sounds like it is basically combining the effects of a left- and right- one-way wall, except it would be misleading to represent that with two sets of arrows since as I said, the arrows indicate the allowed directions and not the forbidden ones.  The down arrow is reasonably clear at explaining what is allowed, but not what are forbidden.

I feel like a similar discussion must have happened some time ago that eventually led to the current visual representation of the down arrows.

There may also be a valid second discussion, closer to Dynalem's proposal, in terms of whether it might make sense to have yet another type of one-way wall that is more restrictive, for example where digging is not allowed and bashing/mining only works for one direction.  Though I suppose it can potentially just be represented by overlapping up and horizontal arrows.

[edited for clarity]

[Proxima]

Oops, I guess I was thinking of up OWWs.

That's a good point: an up OWW (permits bashing either way, forbids mining and digging) would be a natural complement to the existing set of OWW types.

[namida]

I want to hear more discussion encouraging new features, not stopping them! I'm bored with old Lemmings.

This could indeed be discussed in the future, but since currently, the goal is to tune up and simplify the code behind existing features, for now we shall not be introducing any new physics-related features. User interface features, of course, are another matter.