[NO-CHANGE] [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Direct Drop on traps and teleporters

[Wafflem]

So direct drop has been disabled for exits.

However, direct-dropping on traps and teleporters is still possible. Shouldn't a lemming just splat instead of being killed by the trap or be teleported?

[namida]

This is a lot more debatable.

In the case of a trap, the lemming is dead either way. The only difference it makes is whether one could perhaps set up a situation where they allow one lemming to pass a trap, by direct-dropping a lemming onto it from a height it couldn't survive the fall. Arguably, the traps detect the presence of a lemming (and go off) and not what the lemming is doing, unlike an exit where the lemming itself jumps into the exit.

In the case of a teleporter, the lemming should come out the other side and splat anyway. Once again, they're detecting the presence of a lemming, and the lemming dies either way. (If it does not splat at the other side, this is a bug.)

I'd like to get more opinions on this one before making any decision though.

[IchoTolot]

The end result wouldn't really make much of an impact for sure. There is just to keep sure that constant traps still catch them (as fireblowers, firehydrants.....).

The only interaction that matters could be: A sure to be dead faller activates a trap/teleporter so a walker that passes closely after isn't catched by it.

But for consistancy with the direct drop case i think it should be removed.

[Nepster]

In my opinion the general guideline should be: The behavior should not depend on whether the lemming has fallen 5 pixels or 500 pixels. So the question should be: Do we want to trigger traps and teleporters for any falling lemming?

Conntinuous traps should always catch lemmings, even when they are falling.
For discrete traps I tend to allow catching lemmings as well, because traps like the spikes in the pillar style and the chameleon in the rock style should definitely catch falling lemmings. It would be extremely weird to be able to pass through them by assigning the floater skill only at the very bottom of the fall. The dragon in the medieval style would look completely weird when catching falling lemmings, but for sake of consistency, we shoud not have different types of discrete traps.
Regarding teleporters I have no strong opinion either way. But their animations suggest lemmings standing on the ground and actively entering the teleporter (similarly to hopping in the exit). Moreover as there is some transition time between entering and exiting the teleporter, it is not intuitively clear that the falling distance is preserved when teleporting. So I tend to using the same algorithm for both teleporters and exits.

[IchoTolot]

Didn't even thought about the Chameleon" and the "Spikes"!

Yes you are right then ------ traps must catch the fallers!

And teleporters I tend to "catch them" aswell  for consistancy with traps (non-consistant aswell), as i see teleporters more related to them as to exits (consistant). But this is highly debatable.

So now my vote goes for let it be as it is

[namida]

And teleporters I tend to "catch them" aswell  for consistancy with traps (non-consistant aswell),

This logic is valid from the point of view of how the mechanics already work - indeed, currently, teleporters function almost the same as traps from a code point of view, the only difference being they send the lemming to a receiver instead of killing it (and of course, they check not only if the teleporter itself is already in action, but also whether the receiver is).

However - this raises another point. How should triggered exits work - or should they even continue to exist, being as they primarily exist for Cheapo compatibility (which is somewhat being negated by the removal of Cheapo Mode) and have never yet been used in a made-for-NeoLemmix graphic set? These too can be argued that they have more in common with traps than with regular exits.

[Nepster]

However - this raises another point. How should triggered exits work - or should they even continue to exist, being as they primarily exist for Cheapo compatibility (which is somewhat being negated by the removal of Cheapo Mode) and have never yet been used in a made-for-NeoLemmix graphic set? These too can be argued that they have more in common with traps than with regular exits.

As you plan to cull the Cheapo gimmick, triggered exits should be culled as well. They are no longer needed for Cheapo levels, not used in any other level and their different mechanics are not immediately obvious to players.

[namida]

Fair enough. Let's get rid of those too, then.

[mobius]

I have to argue that I'd like to see this be disabled if exit direct dropping is disabled. I get it from the logical point of view but I've already had to make ugly adjustments to my level* because of direct dropping in teleporters where I didn't want.
If anything, I vote disable it for teleporters.

Traps is another matter. As stated, traps can exist in the air [the chameleon] but I'm guessing teleporters will normally only exist on the ground.

*The Rineman Exchange  from MobiLems 2.

These changes would be in favor of the level designer; which means less backroutes [I think].

[namida]

I can't think of any case where teleporters have been used in mid-air; I won't go as far as saying none exist for sure. Still, it is somewhat unusual behaviour.

For the record, I am okay with having a different behaviour for teleporters than for traps; as long as there's good reasoning for it. This kind of thing can be coded on a per-object basis very easily, no matter how similar the objects are.

mobius - in the case you mention, were the lemmings falling from a height that should make them splat but didn't? If they were, they should still splat anyway once they come out the other side; them not doing so is a definite bug. And if they weren't, then direct drop wouldn't make much of a difference; they'd land and then immediately teleport, so the only difference is it might be a frame or two longer before they teleport.

[mobius]

I can't think of any case where teleporters have been used in mid-air; I won't go as far as saying none exist for sure. Still, it is somewhat unusual behaviour.

For the record, I am okay with having a different behaviour for teleporters than for traps; as long as there's good reasoning for it. This kind of thing can be coded on a per-object basis very easily, no matter how similar the objects are.

mobius - in the case you mention, were the lemmings falling from a height that should make them splat but didn't? If they were, they should still splat anyway once they come out the other side; them not doing so is a definite bug. And if they weren't, then direct drop wouldn't make much of a difference; they'd land and then immediately teleport, so the only difference is it might be a frame or two longer before they teleport.

Yes they do splat-- in fact forget everything I said, my post was pointless, besides your point that wasn't the reason that level had problems.
I actually find it amusing how a "splatting lemming" teleports through then splats