about builders...

[LJLPM]

a quick question about Lemmings1's builders here...
I'm not sure: when building + hitting a wall, do builders make a U-turn and :
- 1)stop building
- or 2)do they continue their work? (in the opposite direction, of course)

=> and what if the builder is also a climber?

Thanks. (back to work on the Android game now...)

[Proxima]

A builder checks for his feet and head colliding with terrain, and if either does, the builder stops building and walks in the opposite direction. This is true even if he's a climber: the only way he can stop and immediately climb a wall in front of him is if he has just run out of bricks.

A builder will, however, turn and continue building if he encounters a blocker.

[LJLPM]

Thanks for the clarification

[grams88]

In the atari st version, the lemming can keep building through until the gap is sealed without turning around if his head is already touching the bridge. In the end once he completes the bridge there's a good chance he will turn around.

He will turn around he you start building him and his head is not touching but once it does he will turn around.

Sorry I hope that makes sense.

[ccexplore]

The Game Boy version (well, and maybe Lemmings Revolution, my memory is a little fuzzy) is the only version I'm aware of where a builder does #2.  In most versions, builder stops and turns around on encountering obstacles as it tries to move forward or upward while building.  Do note however that in original official versions of the game (eg. PC, Amiga, etc.), builders do exhibit behavior #2 when encountering a blocker during building, and in fact one official level (Mayhem 5 -- "Down, Along, Up. In that Order") explicitly requires that behavior in its solution.

[Luis]

One thing that was annoying is that you have to be careful on where you start building when you're going to build to a wall, because if you start building on the wrong spot, the Lemming will bash the stair and fall instead of bashing through the wall. This was fixed in the PSP. You can even see when it's ok to start bashing, because after the Lemming has placed the step, the pixels of the step changes and that's where you can start bashing the wall and not destroy the stair.

[ccexplore]

One thing that was annoying is that you have to be careful on where you start building when you're going to build to a wall, because if you start building on the wrong spot, the Lemming will bash the stair and fall instead of bashing through the wall. This was fixed in the PSP. You can even see when it's ok to start bashing, because after the Lemming has placed the step, the pixels of the step changes and that's where you can start bashing the wall and not destroy the stair.

The explanation for the described known problem in "classic" versions of the game (ie. PC, Amiga, etc.) is slightly incomplete.  The real issue is that depending on where you start building (and in some cases which direction the lemming is facing), the player may never be given a chance to carry out the desired bashing behavior--too soon and A) the game still considers the lemming to be standing on the old brick rather than on the new brick just laid, so when you bash you fall, but too late and B) the game already executed the "turn around on wall" behavior, leaving you unable to bash in the desired direction.  There exist not-uncommon cases in the classic version, depending on where you start building etc., where the player will always be either "too soon" or "too late", hence the problem.

It sounds like in PSP, they addressed this problem by making sure there is always a safe period of time between "too soon" and "too late", perhaps by treating the lemming to be already positioned on top of the new brick just laid, even if the animation of stepping up onto it is still ongoing (at least that's what your description sounds like, I'm not sure).  Basically by putting more forgiveness with respect to A.  One other alternative is more forgiveness with respect to B, ie. don't trigger the turnaround behavior until lemming is really close to the wall, rather than just barely close enough for the build-bridge to connect to the wall.  Another alternative is to always provide a small period of grace between  "lemming finished moving up onto the new brick" and "turnaround behavior executed".

[Luis]

Yeah the Lemming will be placed on top of the brick that he just placed, when you turn him into a basher as soon as the pixels of that brick gives you the signal.

[LJLPM]

Thanks for your feedback.
For the Android game, I simplified things:
- 1) when builders hit a wall, the "stop building" animation is triggered, but builders don't turn around, so they still face the wall (until they walk again, and hit the wall, of course) and, thus, they'll bash in the right direction. Moreover, builders are placed on the stair's/bridge's top brick, so you won't bash the stair by mistake.
- 2) when they hit a blocker, builders simply stop building (as it is with classic walls). It will be up to the player to re-start building in the opposite direction.

It's simple, and it works nicely:

[ccexplore]

If I understand correctly, your method is basically saying builders simply don't turn around automatically if they encounter obstacles; they just stop building and then rely on normal walking behavior.  Ultimately it's your game, but keep in mind that this change do affect certain techniques that work on classic Lemmings:

• The lemming now only turns around if it's a sufficient tall wall, whereas before, they can build close to a walkable step (one steeper than the slope of building) and still be able to turn around.  One technique affected for example is digging down a shallow pit and then build to turn around.  With the new behavior, you'd need to dig down deep enough so that the lemming cannot simply step up and out of the pit (instead of turning around at its wall), and then have to spend one extra builder to be able to get out of the pit after turning around.
• They no longer turn around if they stopped building due to overhead ceiling rather than a wall, since there is no wall in that case for them to turn around with.
• Similarly, climbers can no longer turn around via building, as walls never turn them around.  They would instead need to do something like mine/bash and then build, and rely on the end of the mine/bash tunnel for turnaround purposes.

Ultimately there's no "right" or "wrong" with this, you'd just have to try out the new behavior on the levels you make and see what the experience is like.

[LJLPM]

- You're right: the original Lemmings's mechanics are more interesting! I've just updated my code to mimic them finally (so every point you raised now also works in the game // hitting the ceiling when building already caused builders to turn around).
Note that if players trigger a builder/basher/miner/digger during the "stop building" animation, then this action is performed in the same direction the builder operated.

- I think I'll keep the "blockers fully stop builders" behaviour, unless there's a good reason to stick to Lemmings1' mechanics on this one...?

- little bit off-topic stuff: recent updates of the game where aimed at fine-tuning Lemmings' behaviours (hence my question about builders...).

[LJLPM]

...talking about builders who make a U-turn when hitting something, is there a webpage somewhere that lists all these specific behaviours found in Lemmings1? I'm asking that because I'm fine-tuning the Lemmings' behaviours for the Android game, and I want to be sure I'm not missing some subtleties in behaviours!!!

edit: found! http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings/gameplay/ and http://lemmings.wikia.com/wiki/Lemmings
The Android game mimics all these behaviours except :
- builders and miners no longer work after hitting a blocker (-> they instantly turn back to the "walker" state)

Also, in the Android game, miners and bashers do turn around when hitting Steel.
I think I'm not missing something, right? (feel free to add infos otherwise)

[Clam]

There's a topic on these forums dedicated to interesting lemmings behaviours. The topic focuses on techniques that arise from the mechanics rather than the mechanics themselves, but hopefully explains the underlying mechanics well enough too. Everything listed there is "legitimate" behaviour (contrast the glitches topic for things that shouldn't happen!) but of course it's up to you what you allow in your version.

[LJLPM]

Thanks for the links: there are pretty comprehensive lists of behaviours here! I tried my best to make the game glitch-free, so many of these behaviours may not work in the Android game, but I'm sure, guys, you'll find behaviours, glitches, or mechanics I didn't think of For the time being, I'm very happy with the Lemmings' behaviours in the latest version of the Android game.