Lemmings 2 with standard skills

[finlay]

Anyone ever thought about modding Lemmings 2 to use the original set of 8 skills (besides the classic levels that already do, of course)? Of course, it might not be possible for all of the levels... but maybe we could consider it as a theoretical challenge?

[ccexplore]

We actually have a usable Lemmings 2 level editor courtesy of GuyPerfect (although no Mac version, sorry), so it's not totally theoretical.  Only problem is that it turns out PC Lemmings 2 can't support blockers outside of Classic Tribe, so that skill I guess have to remain theoretical. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

It would be an interesting concept to try I think.  Are we still keeping the other aspects of Lemmings 2?  E.g.:
  - except in Classic Tribe, explosions fling nearby lemmings away
  - chains?  cannons?  teleports?  other objects with no analog in Lemmings 1?
  - do we have to keep the release rate and time limit same as the original level, or can we mess with those too?  other stats?
  - Lemmings 2 don't actually have a concept of "required % to save", but we can effectively interpret the "max number you can lose and still get gold" stat as an equivalent
  - "number of lemmings out" is a funny concept in Lemmings 2 since it's carried over from level to level within a tribe, and you always start with 60 at the first level of a tribe.  For this game would we allow level designer to specify a specific number of lemmings like in Lemmings 1, or do we assume a max of 60?

[namida]

Is there any other skill similar enough to blockers? It could be used as a replacement...

[ccexplore]

Not really.  Basically they offer attractors as replacement for blockers in terms of crowd control.  For actually turning lemmings around, the closest thing I can think of are maybe stackers, or archers when you fire the arrow straight up and let it fall straight down.   Or even a thrower's stone.  But they are far too powerful compared with a simple blocker.

[finlay]

That's a bit rubbish. I was envisaging just changing the levels to have the original skillset; keep all the other features that were changed. Ideally that would be simple to accomplish by just editing the levels, but if they can't support blockers, that's that idea quashed. I thought it was a bit fishy that it was the only classic skill not used outside the classic tribe.

Also, has anyone else ever thought that stompers were entirely useless since they accomplish the same task as a digger?

[ccexplore]

Also, has anyone else ever thought that stompers were entirely useless since they accomplish the same task as a digger?

Well, I guess it goes down faster and does so in 2-pixel increments rather than 1-pixel, and I think the first stroke doesn't take out pixels above ground level like a digger does, but otherwise, yeah, I guess they accomplish the same task.  (Actually, I don't remember for sure, are the widths of the pit created differ slightly too, or exactly the same?)

I'm a little hard pressed to imagine what much they could vary though.  Diagonal and horizontal terrain-removal skill already exists even in Lemmings 1, so no new directions, literally.  Only other thing is maybe a different width for the pit created, which may already be true.  The point being that the digger-stomper similarity is arguably in similar vein to the similarities between basher, club fasher and fencer, or miner and scooper.  Heck, even some of their new skills feel a little redundant--bazooka and mortar only differ in launch angle basically, and they really could've made it as a single skill that can be aimed like archer.

In any case, I can think of other skills of less utility.  Divers anyone? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Incidentally, even though it's unfortunate that the blockers can't be used for this, I think we can still get decent levels out of only using the other 7 skills.

[Simon]

Divers have several uses, although they don't blossom anywhere except in geoo's diver level:
- On flat ground, they're like assigning Stunner.
- At a cliff, they jump over small gaps.
- Multiple assignments allow to glitch into the terrain, so z-crawling is triggered.

-- Simon

[finlay]

Wait, what are divers actually for, then? I couldn't work out a way to use them in-game.

[ccexplore]

I don't think the game has any levels that really try to make use of them in any serious way.

The most natural use I can think of is a variation of Simon's #2 (I mean his points above, not that #2, even though we're kinda arguing that divers are worth #2 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />).  You could imagine a setup where:

1) if you let the lemming fall straight down, he splats on some ground below
2) if you let the lemming jump or hop, he goes over the gap or otherwise winds up elsewhere [edit: or, the ceiling is so low that jumping and hopping does practically nothing]
3) but if you let the lemming dive, he manages to get through the gap, and past the ground below so he doesn't splat, and winds up cleanly in the water--at which point of course you still need to assign swimmer, kayaker or surfer before he drowns! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

Of course, making this work require rather specific setup, and it's likely there are backroutes allowing you to get safely into the water w/o bothering with the diver.  For example, because a runner also does a slight hop when encountering a cliff, you might end up able to substitute a runner for the diver in the scenario above, depending on whether the permanence of runners will affect things negatively down the line.

Ultimately I think we have to admit some skills are included more for humor than anything else.  The skier is another example.  Its trademark is the ability to build up speed down a slope and then jump across a gap, but it's easy to lose the speed, the jump needs to happen via a specific curve, and even in the best conditions the jump height/distance isn't all that impressive to me.

[finlay]

Meh. The skier did kinda work in one level where you separate half the crowd by giving them skiers at the start – the other half then get skaters to skate over some ice. (the solution I saw later for the level on TLE was an obvious backroute that I think involved building over the ice, so it wasn't a particularly well-designed level.)

Planter is my personal 'wtf is this for?' skill. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I think they are actually used in a solution, though – I couldn't figure out one for Shadow 10 that didn't use a planter, although I feel sure it must be possible