Java

[GuyPerfect]

I recently had to install http://java.sun.com/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Java on my machine for something related to work, and inspiration struck me like lightning to a deep-cleated golfer raising a silver fairway driver during a thunderstorm. I don't normally keep it around, as I rarely use it (as the same can be said for development on the web), but it presents many an opportunity nonetheless and I thought I'd pitch some ideas here.

Consider the following...

• Lemmings level editors could be written in Java and put up on the site. You could access them to create and edit levels from anywhere without having to download and install anything, so it's always right there within reach. And being Java, they would automatically be supported on all major operating systems.
• Linking the editors with the forum system would allow a sort of centralized login and allow users to save, upload and download level files and game patches; storing their progress on the server where, again, it's always accessible from any location.
• A "play testing" mode can be implemented to allow levels to be played in the browser without falling into the same legal troubles taken against http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">DHTML Lemmings.
  
• While we're at it, let's have that play testing mode and that server communication feature link up with each other to allow browser-based multiplay. This need not apply to only the original version of Lemmings.
• Since Java supports OpenGL, 3D applications can be created as well, such as applicable programs for Lemmings Revolution.

.
Just ideas at this point, of course. What thoughts do you guys have on this?

[ccexplore]

Some interesting points there definitely.

I do have to say though, given how much the forums had gone dark in the past, I'm rather skittish about the idea of storing levels on a server online.  I guess it could be okay if they're always automatically sync'ed and backed up with copies on your local computer.  Of course, the next worry is the spectable of not being able to edit your levels anymore because the server went dark (whether temporarily or permanently), although again, this can be mitigated if the Java editor can be released in a standalone form to be run as a Java standalone application rather than only over the browser.

I'm not sure I understand though how the playtest mode thing can avoid the intellectual property issues DHTML Lemmings have (though I'm not too worry since no one has been issuing cease-and-desist letters to the author of say Lemmix so far).  At least I think we can be reasonably confident that a Java-based game engine should be performant enough for at least 2D Lemmings, given examples like Lemmini.  Multi-play is definitely a good direction to explore and would be quite natural with an implementation of the editor/game over the web.

But please, I beg you, wrap up your current work on the C-based Lemmings 2 Editor first! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />  I trust that you've put enough efforts into that, you would at least bother to wrap it up to shape first before you start your next project.

[Mindless]

A "play testing" mode can be implemented to allow levels to be played in the browser without falling into the same legal troubles taken against http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">DHTML Lemmings.

I had a similar idea a while back: integrating Lemmini into the level pack database as a Java applet.  When I asked 0xdeadbeef if it could happen, he told me that converting Lemmini to an applet wouldn't be "a matter of a few lines of code" and that he probably wouldn't have time to do it.

But if you can make Lemmings-in-the-browser happen, go for it.

[Minim]

I like this idea of Java. I remember OxDeadbeef got Lemmini playable, even though it was a beta release.

I wish I could learn a fair bit of it as well, but I'm not a very good programmer compared to some clever genius like Dullstar. It is easy to make something out of Java?

[namida]

Once you get the basics of programming, it's not too hard to move between languages (this does of course depend on which languages you're moving between, though).

However, getting those basics in the first place can be quite a challenge.

[LemSteven]

I'm not sure I understand though how the playtest mode thing can avoid the intellectual property issues DHTML Lemmings have (though I'm not too worry since no one has been issuing cease-and-desist letters to the author of say Lemmix so far). 

I also don't see how a playtest mode would avoid this eventually going down the path of DHTML Lemmings.  And just because nobody has been issuing cease and desist letters to the other fan projects lately does not put them in the clear.  I've seen fan projects at other sites get shut down after thriving online for five years or more.  It's all a matter of when the copyright owners discover the project and decide to shut it down.

I'd be particularly worried if a project like this received any kind of outside attention.  If I remember correctly, that's what led to the demise of DHTML Lemmings.  Lemmix and the other fan projects have not had any kind of attention, so I wouldn't be surprised if the copyright owners don't even know about them.

[GuyPerfect]

Woah, I'm surprised no one mentioned "Why not just use Flash, as most people are basically guaranteed to have it already?" Well, to answer the un-asked question, Flash is locked down quite a bit more (by default) than Java, which may get in the way of some of the features of the suggested project.

For instance, Flash is only able to download files or establish connections with the domain name where the Flash app itself originated. What if the Lemmings multiplay server is different from the web server where the game applet is stored? In Java, that's not an issue.

Additionally, Flash is much slower due to interprated ActionScript.

In response to concerns about legal action: The play testing mode, as described, is a tool to assist in the creation of levels. Sony's attourneys would not be able to prosecute such a feature, as it is not copying or in some other way attempting to pass off as any of Sony's intellectual properties. People would be able to use the play testing mode to, say, play the game online for free, but of course such actions will not be condoned by the author or the community... Right guys!?

I do have to say though, given how much the forums had gone dark in the past, I'm rather skittish about the idea of storing levels on a server online.  I guess it could be okay if they're always automatically sync'ed and backed up with copies on your local computer.  Of course, the next worry is the spectable of not being able to edit your levels anymore because the server went dark (whether temporarily or permanently), although again, this can be mitigated if the Java editor can be released in a standalone form to be run as a Java standalone application rather than only over the browser.

In either situation, user data should be stored on a trustworthy server. I would not consider this forum system's server to fall under that category. Even if something were to happen, any smart server engineer would have backup systems in place, so even a direct ballistic attack to the server facility itself would not be enough to cause a loss of data.

But please, I beg you, wrap up your current work on the C-based Lemmings 2 Editor first! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />  I trust that you've put enough efforts into that, you would at least bother to wrap it up to shape first before you start your next project.

"Hey, I'm almost done. Let's scrub it and start something else!" Nah. (-: At this point, I have no idea if I'll even delve into Java Lemmings in the first place, so the release of my project in its current form was never out of the question.

I'd be particularly worried if a project like this received any kind of outside attention.  If I remember correctly, that's what led to the demise of DHTML Lemmings.  Lemmix and the other fan projects have not had any kind of attention, so I wouldn't be surprised if the copyright owners don't even know about them.

DHTML Lemmings was brought down for fear of legal action; no legal action was actually taken. It's an extremely common scare tactic to try to get someone else to stop doing something you don't necessarily want them to do: threaten to sue. The case that would have been brought against DHTML Lemmings claimed that the project used code from the original Lemmings release. Since it did not, and could easily be shown that it did not, the defendant would have won the case. I'd have been surprised if any legal action were taken even if the project stayed online.

The internet has been a thorn in the side of copyright suits ever since people started using it, because of the way copyright is defined. In the United States, at least, an infringing article must match two criteria: 1) It must be either a direct copy or a look-alike of a copyrighted work and 2) it must be intended for use in sale or trade. DHTML Lemmings falls into the first category, but not the second, which means (again, according to US law) that it does not constitute an infringement of copyright.

The primary motivator behind legal action is almost universally money. Whoever threatened to sue over DHTML Lemmings didn't want people playing the product without paying for it. I doubt DHTML Lemmings constituted a copyright infringement even in the Netherlands, where the suit would have taken place, but an invalid argument from the angry attourneys was only prepared to scare the author into retracting his work, and things happened just the way they wanted.

[ccexplore]

In response to concerns about legal action: The play testing mode, as described, is a tool to assist in the creation of levels. Sony's attourneys would not be able to prosecute such a feature, as it is not copying or in some other way attempting to pass off as any of Sony's intellectual properties. People would be able to use the play testing mode to, say, play the game online for free, but of course such actions will not be condoned by the author or the community... Right guys!?

I honestly can't figure out exactly how the intellectual property laws work, and undoubtedly there are a lot of gray areas in there too.  And as you alluded to later, oftentimes in this world of David vs Goliath, the mere threat of legal action is enough to put an end to David.

From what I can tell from past projects, I believe in order to be free of legal hassles, you'd need to make sure your lemmings don't actually look like lemmings, and you can't include any artwork (eg. graphics sets, title screens, etc.) from any of the official games.  Oh, and make sure not to say "Lemmings" anywhere since there might be a trademark or similar thing going on for that sort of thing (I don't know for sure, but the point is, there may be other intellectual property laws involved besides copyrights).

Passing off playtest mode as a non-game I think would make a fairly weak argument, since other than aspects like scoring and possibly multiplay, a playtest mode has to by definition be close enough to actual gameplay in order to be useful.  One could even turn the argument on its head and say that Sony's official Lemmings games (some of which have or used to have a level editor component) is as much of a playtesting tool for custom levels as it is a game.

In either situation, user data should be stored on a trustworthy server. I would not consider this forum system's server to fall under that category. Even if something were to happen, any smart server engineer would have backup systems in place, so even a direct ballistic attack to the server facility itself would not be enough to cause a loss of data.

That's all good but not exactly what I have in mind.  Past forums have gone down for reasons other than unreliable hardware or malicious attacks.  For example, sometimes it's a just matter of funding, and other times because the hosting site goes out of business or otherwise decides to go away.  Basically (and generally), if user data is only stored on the cloud, you're asking all users to give up having full control over access to their levels, entrusting that instead into the hands of whoever's managing the online system.  Keeping in mind that some people are skittish even of ideas like having their thesis paper stored online in a Google Word-type app ("what if I can't get to it on the day it's due?"), imagine how much more concern it would be when we're not talking about a big corporation like Google, but a server run by one or two guys you only know by an alias and an avatar. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

This is why I'm more open to a hybrid system that at least provide limited level access and editing capabilities even when the online component is down.  Alternatively, a peer-to-peer architecture could also potentially work.

In the United States, at least, an infringing article must match two criteria: 1) It must be either a direct copy or a look-alike of a copyrighted work and 2) it must be intended for use in sale or trade. DHTML Lemmings falls into the first category, but not the second, which means (again, according to US law) that it does not constitute an infringement of copyright.

I don't pretend to understand the finer points (or even some of the major points really) of copyright laws, but I would think that the actual legal phrasing for #2, or at least the usual interpretation thereof from past cases, is more restrictive than the way you have it there.  I don't think you can get away with it merely by giving away your work for free, since this would still impact the business revenues of the copyright holders, and that is exactly what copyright laws aimed to protect against.

[Dullstar]

javascript:void(0);

Anyways, I say no.  The Lemmings Archive is good enough.

@minimac:

I wish I could learn a fair bit of it as well, but I'm not a very good programmer compared to some clever genius like Dullstar. It is easy to make something out of Java?

Was that a typo?  I'm still learning how to program.  If you'd like though, I will teach you what I know.