Quote from: JawaJuice on November 27, 2025, 08:51:59 AM...

I'll take another look It'll probably get to the point soon where I can no longer backroute it if I can't find the correct solution Thanks for the insight into the creation process! I'm no closer to solving Ice Cream Cake Part 2 btw, or Outside the Box 2. I think our brains work in quite different ways, you and I Not a bad thing at all, it just happens sometimes. I feel like your solutions sometimes require a degree of lateral thinking, which is not something I excel at - I'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha

Well. this is an interesting one, because I too am a computer programmer and my claim to fame is that I'm a core member and contributor of source code to the Free Pascal Compiler, specialising in optimisation and assembly language, so you can't get any more logical than that!  And yeah, I'm not too good at cryptic crosswords either, although I've managed to solve a few random clues, like "Bent coach stole confectionaries" (10 letters).

Quote from: JawaJuice on November 27, 2025, 08:39:12 AMCheers, kaywhyn It was a pleasure playing your levels in this contest; I enjoyed them very much!

Thanks for the compliment! Glad to hear you enjoyed my levels You've also done a great job with getting the other levels in the collection pack solved and finding some backroutes in the process. In particular, I haven't seen your solutions to Icho's R1 and R2, but I'm surprised you managed to backroute them because when I pre-tested his 3 entries I managed to get the intended solutions to all of them. Nice finds!

Quote

Spoiler

I seemed to recall your AWESOME Fire level used it as well when I said that but I may be misremembering there - was that one just blocker turns to extend the miner? Anyway, you're quite right, I can't jump to that conclusion based on a couple of levels. It was just a frivolous observation though I thought your use of the technique in your R3 level was very clever - I certainly didn't spot it as a possibility for quite a while and you might have less experienced players stumped.

No worries, I knew you were just messing around there with that remark I just thought it was funny that, out of the nearly 50 levels total I've made (some haven't been released yet, since they're for my WIP level pack) over a span of 4 (almost 5 now) years, I have only made about 5 levels that require keeping skills going and you thus associated me as someone who likes this element in my intended solutions There's other skill types that can do the job as well, and I've yet to make those levels!

Regarding the Fire level of mine you mentioned in the spoiler tag, I'm not going to say anything about the solution yet other than what I've already told you before about it being a backroute. I need to get a patch out for it, though I didn't realize I left it untouched for nearly 1.5 years How time flies haha.

Also, thank you for the feedback of my R3 regarding the difficulty. It is a bit surprising to hear that was the hardest part for you, but as a level designer you can't always predict what parts will stump players and what parts they'll figure out quickly. More often than not, designers often underestimate the difficulty of their levels, which is easy to do because you as the creator know what's intended while other players who play them don't. Moreover, just only seeing the intended solution is what makes us designers blind to backroutes! This is where other players sending in solutions and feedback come in very handy. That's why authors often get testers for their levels/packs!

QuoteI'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha

Oh nice, another computer programmer on the Forums! There's plenty of programmers/coders in this community. I'm not one, but I did have to take a C++ computer programming course in my undergrad for my math major. So yes, I'm the same way with being a logical person O.o, cryptic crosswords. Those are tough! Never tried one, but I know what those are. I can't even complete any kind of crossword puzzle from newspapers haha. At least not without doing them with another person or group of people      

Quote from: Crane on November 27, 2025, 06:23:57 AMBackrouted again.  V3 is out.

If a solution is unique, beautiful or more difficult than what's intended, then it might be kept as a viable alternative.  It's very subjective though.

One recent example with my own levels... the original "Ice Cream Cake" was just one level with the "part two" solution as the intended one, but it had 2 bombers that were meant to be a red herring, but Armani playtested it for me and found a solution that was just too beautiful to pass up.  Coincidentally, this was at the same time that the previous contest was being run where you had to make a pair of levels with different skillsets, where one wasn't a subset of the other (so they had completely different solutions and one couldn't be performed in the other), so I withdrew my submission (which was the "Outside the box" levels) and submitted two versions of Ice Cream Cake... one with a bomber removed (to stop Armani's solution) and one with a climber removed (which wasn't required for Armani's solution)!

Sometimes you do get happy accidents.

I'll take another look It'll probably get to the point soon where I can no longer backroute it if I can't find the correct solution Thanks for the insight into the creation process! I'm no closer to solving Ice Cream Cake Part 2 btw, or Outside the Box 2. I think our brains work in quite different ways, you and I Not a bad thing at all, it just happens sometimes. I feel like your solutions sometimes require a degree of lateral thinking, which is not something I excel at - I'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha

Quote from: Armani on November 27, 2025, 04:04:17 AM@JawaJuice
Close enough well done!

Nice! Cheers Armani Great levels in this contest; nice looking, and elegant puzzles. I haven't played a lot of your stuff before, been kind of frightened away by your reputation of making super hard levels but these weren't so bad. Challenging yes, but not insurmountable

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 27, 2025, 03:13:51 AM@JawaJuice

Your solutions to my R1 and R3 are intended! Great job!

For R1, there's actually two intended ways

Cheers, kaywhyn It was a pleasure playing your levels in this contest; I enjoyed them very much!

Spoiler

Ah OK, good to know. I did wonder whether the basher and miner might be interchangeable but didn't try it that way after finding my solution. The reason I went with the basher first isn't because I thought he couldn't do the job at the end, but rather that bashers are fractionally quicker than miners and I thought that slight difference in timing could be critical.

QuoteHeh, I like how you've played levels of mine that happen to require this and you are quick to associate this solution element with me, when in fact only one other level of mine (in one of the previous LDCs, not this one) requires this Yes, I do love this combo in general, but I've only used this as part of my intended solution just last year, 3 years after I first started level designing! This is also only one type and way of doing so. I haven't yet made other levels that involve this with the other skill types!

Spoiler

I seemed to recall your AWESOME Fire level used it as well when I said that but I may be misremembering there - was that one just blocker turns to extend the miner? Anyway, you're quite right, I can't jump to that conclusion based on a couple of levels. It was just a frivolous observation though I thought your use of the technique in your R3 level was very clever - I certainly didn't spot it as a possibility for quite a while and you might have less experienced players stumped.

Quote from: JawaJuice on November 26, 2025, 11:36:02 PMAs a level designer, do you have any view on alternative solutions you hadn't considered? Or is everything that isn't very close to the intended solution a backroute?

I had another crack at R1, probably another backroute since I didn't use the basher. Gotta say, Crane, yours and Icho's levels are devilishly hard! XD

Backrouted again.  V3 is out.

If a solution is unique, beautiful or more difficult than what's intended, then it might be kept as a viable alternative.  It's very subjective though.

One recent example with my own levels... the original "Ice Cream Cake" was just one level with the "part two" solution as the intended one, but it had 2 bombers that were meant to be a red herring, but Armani playtested it for me and found a solution that was just too beautiful to pass up.  Coincidentally, this was at the same time that the previous contest was being run where you had to make a pair of levels with different skillsets, where one wasn't a subset of the other (so they had completely different solutions and one couldn't be performed in the other), so I withdrew my submission (which was the "Outside the box" levels) and submitted two versions of Ice Cream Cake... one with a bomber removed (to stop Armani's solution) and one with a climber removed (which wasn't required for Armani's solution)!

Sometimes you do get happy accidents.

@JawaJuice
Close enough well done!

@WillLem

QuoteJust because something is "long-standing", and a "standard", doesn't mean that (a) it's the right way to do things, (b) it's the best way to do things, or (c) it shouldn't be subject to scrutiny, review, and potential updating.

In other words, "it's always been that way" shouldn't be a strong argument not to try something different.

What I mean by a long-standing community standard is simply that most people have just always done it that way when uploading level packs. They've always had the option to include or not include replays, but most chose not to. I've given my own reasons, but I assume everyone else has their own reasons as well. My reluctance toward your idea can be summed up in one sentence: "I worry that it could create an undeserved disadvantage for the majority of authors who choose not to include replays." Everything else I wrote was simply a response to your response.

QuoteSurely if we can trust users to make solvable levels, we can trust them not to look at solution replays for spoilers! !

Including replays or not has nothing to do with whether we trust players or not. I enjoy seeing how far players can get without having the answers available from the start, but I also understand that some people don't want to put too much time into a single level and prefer to see the solution and move on. So another main purpose of including replays is to allow players to compare their own solutions with my intended solution without having to upload their replays, wait for me to check them, and then wait for my response. By releasing the replays after some time has passed, I can filter out any obvious backroutes or major design oversights before a self-sufficient "ecosystem" forms where players can check the intended solution on their own without my involvement. It has nothing to do with whether I trust users or not, because my intention from the start is to let players freely compare their solutions with mine whenever they choose. Conversely, during the early stages after releasing a level pack, I actually want players to report any fatal issues so I can fix them. That's another reason why I don't publish the solution immediately.



@namida

QuoteLevel-as-directory in general seems like an interesting idea.

This made me wonder : what if, in a completely new hypothetical engine, we created a dedicated website where users could voluntarily upload all sorts of assets related to each level, including styles, solutions, music, previous versions of the levels and so on so that players could download as much or as little as they want.
In a sense, it would be like an expanded version of NeoLemmix's style downloader extended to other categories. By  keeping a core NXLV format and allowing players to download the level, the required styles, and optionally the replay directly from the forum thread, the traditional method would still remain available.   My workplace actually has a similar internal network: all the artists upload their characters, 3D models, sprites, and all sorts of components to the internal repository, and each department can pull whatever they need whenever they need it. The idea I'm suggesting would work somewhat like that.

@JawaJuice

Your solutions to my R1 and R3 are intended! Great job!

For R1, there's actually two intended ways, since

Spoiler

the basher and miner are interchangeable in the solution It's true that the miner skill is a downwards moving destructive skill, but the basher skill's destruction mask starts at the row of the Lemming's feet and removes several rows of pixels above it too If you do it this way, you need to make sure to mine through the dart in the same way so that he is not delayed, i.e, you need to be right up against the dart when you assign the miner. Then the basher assignment to release the ohnoer is at nearly the same spot as the miner, just an extra pixel forward but the effect in the end is the same: The ohnoer touches the exit trigger on the ground in time before he explodes  

Quote from: JawaJuice on November 26, 2025, 07:56:30 PM

Spoiler

You like your destructive skill extensions via builders don't you?

Heh, I like how you've played levels of mine that happen to require this and you are quick to associate this solution element with me, when in fact only one other level of mine (in one of the previous LDCs, not this one) requires this Yes, I do love this combo in general, but I've only used this as part of my intended solution just last year, 3 years after I first started level designing! This is also only one type and way of doing so. I haven't yet made other levels that involve this with the other skill types!

QuoteIt's of course possible that I might stumble upon a trick I wasn't previously aware of just by ditching prior assumptions and trying many things, but perhaps not probable. Where do you stand on topics that detail advanced tricks? I read through Strato Incendus's Advanced Blocker Tricks topic (nothing on there I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless, probably helpful for some) and the discussion that ensued makes for interesting reading. Opinions seemed mixed on whether such a topic was a good idea or tantamount to a cheat sheet. After a quick search, that's the only topic documenting tricks that I could find.

Even though I am one of those Lemmings level solvers who doesn't like hints or spoilers of any kind, I personally don't mind such a thing existing. I think they're good to have, if only to serve as reminders for those who are already aware of them, since it can be kind of easy to overlook or forget them from time to time when solving levels. I myself have the tendency to overlook the simple parts of the solution while getting the complicated solution parts quickly If they're hidden behind spoilers like they are in that topic of Strato's, then those who prefer to avoid them can simply not open up what's behind the spoiler tags, while those who want to know can if they like.   

Quote from: Simon on November 26, 2025, 09:40:50 PMA level might be a directory. It should contain the level proper, the intended/accepted solutions that should pass during mass replay verification, and backroute replays that should fail.

I'm not sure how useful the backroute replays would be in a finished level (they could be very useful for a WIP level where the backroute in question has not yet been fixed, and it's there to remind the author what they need to fix), especially without some kind of "auto replay repair" mechanism. Otherwise, the fail could simply be that a lemming is not quite in the right place due to some minor unrelated change, and that if the assignment was tweaked back to the correct position, the replay would pass again. It could perhaps be useful as a collection for a human to verify (but then, they'd need a way to see the backroute work on a vulnerable version of the level, otherwise they might not know exactly what they're trying to fix), a lot of effort though.

Level-as-directory in general seems like an interesting idea. Another advantage would be that "vgaspec" levels could have their unique terrain pieces as part of the level, rather than needing an (author)_special style. Disadvantage would be a bit more hassle when creating / organising packs by hand, as well as the need to ZIP them when sharing - although this could be avoided by still having a core NXLV or similar file that can also be used on its own, assuming no level-specific pieces like the vgaspec idea are needed for the level in question - perhaps by the engine having an "import" folder you drop the level into, and it moves it to an appropriate place in the tree structure with a directory of its own. Another possibility could be to work similar to how styles associate extra files with pieces - the main level file is titled, say "Example.nlxv", and then any files associated with it are "Example_Terrain.png", "Example_Replay1.nxrp", etc; keeping each level in its own folder then becomes a matter of convention (and engine support for a folder that contains a single level, rather than being a rank / pack) rather than obligation, and the NXLV remains useful on its own if no other files are needed. Downside to that would be potential issues arising if one level's filename starts with the same thing as another's full name, eg, if you have "Example.nxlv" and "Example_(Part_II).nxlv" in the same folder, whether the engine might think that "Example_(Part_II)_Solution1.nxrp" is a replay called "(Part_II)_Solution" for "Example". Far, far too late for NL / NLCE at this point (SLX could consider it), but that's a very good idea for any future engines / overhauls.