Hey y'all.

It's been a bit. After some time improving my streaming set up, getting more original hardware; I'll be back up and running harder than ever once my busy work season is over this spring. Just wanted to congratulate WillLem's Amiga runs which are top notch.

A bit of an update in the Lemmings Speedrunning World, since there are been more increasing interest in the game as time goes on. Here's where we stand on known runs:

Amiga:

Fun: (36:31) by WillLem (emulator). This was a 3+ minute improvement from the previously known fastest run.
Tricky: (46:54) by WillLem (emulator). WillLem set up the first time here a couple days ago.

MS-DOS:

All Levels: (6:14:41) by TTDLX (emulator). This run was set 6 years ago.
Fun: (37:21) by crasyfingers (emulator). Ran about a year ago, it was a great improvement on earlier attempts.
Tricky: (1:16:25) by NihilistComedyHour (emulator). This was my first attempted run some 3 years ago.

NES:

All Levels: (3:08:30) by NESCardinality. Set a year ago; still no one brave enough to attempt beating it.
Fun: (16:16) by NihilistComedyHour (emulator).
Tricky: (29:10) by NihilistComedyHour (emulator).
Taxing: (40:08) by NESCardinality.
Mayhem: (1:03:12) by NESCardinality.

(As a side note, I know have a NES and the game, and plan on running and improving all NES times on original hardware).

SNES:

Fun: (35:36) by ApG77 (emulator). This has become a surprisingly popular, with 7 runners currently on the board. ApG77's impressive run is over 4 minutes faster than the next.
Tricky: (49:25) by ApG77 (emulator).
Taxing: (1:05:04) by ApG77 (emulator).

SMS:

Fun: (31:42) by petaQ (emulator).
Tricky: (54:09) by petaQ (emulator).

Genesis:

Fun: (31:31) by PhoenixOfGrunvale (emulator). Recently improved the time by 1:08. It was discovered that using the European version of the game provides an advantage because the reduction in lag offsets the slower frame rate.

And that's where we currently sit!

WillLem, are these levels? How do I play them? I work tax seasons, so will probably be a bit before I get a sec to try them, but I'd like to when I get some free time.

Fun / NES [16:16]

This one ain't going to be topped anytime soon. With the exception of a couple of things, this run was basically perfect. So much detail covered on these 25 levels.

crasyfingers lowered his time down to [16:24], so another 13 seconds gone.

Mostly this is due to  better execution. Some of the improved strats though are as follows.

1-4: Nothing
5: Certain timing with blockers can improve a second or so.
6: correct timing of second explosion will keep a lemming from bouncing, saving a second.
7: (and applicable in other instances) cancelling or ending bridges via pickaxe is a couple frames faster for that specific lemming than ending one with bashers.
8: just bashing through without using any blockers saves a second.
9: not much except better timing cancelling out waiting for one more lemming to die.
10: using a blocker at start, then doing the climbing etc., than adding more blockers to continue bunching of lemmings.
11: new strats for bunching lemmings has improved a few seconds there.
12: impossible to improve
13: improved strats for bunching lemmings while bashing and building, and use of pickaxe.
14: small optimization with timing of events.
15: bunching lemmings closer to gate with multiple blockers. using 2 blockers at the beginning makes it basically impossible to destroy one blocker at the correct time without losing the bridge lemming.
16: big change here: instead of just bashing through with one lemming... make first lemming climb and bash where the column is shorter, than make others climb. saves a 5-6 seconds.
17: save a couple of seconds suiciding the last 5 lemmings.
18: better timing
19: better timing through use of bunching lemmings making it easier.
20: suicide the first two pick axes, then suiciding the third right before he uses his pickaxes saves a couple of seconds.
21: no improvements
22: pick axe improvement.
23: new strat is to pick axe first lemming, than use umbrellas; this results in quicker deaths and non releases for lemmings not needing to be saved.
24: this is the bulk of the improvement, and involves using climbers instead of bashers at the beginning to make the final portion easier to time and gets rid of lemmings not needed to beat level.
25: improved bunch and timing.


Hard to type the specific details on any given level, let alone all 25.

NES / Fun

crasyfingers (22 days ago) [17:12]
me (yesterday) [16:52]
crasyfingers (today) [16:48]
me (yesterday) [16:37]

Down to seconds and frames at this point.

Always admired PetaQ's runs for the sole fact lag is an overwhelming factor of consideration.

Running the NES version, it's definitely the easiest so far that I've encountered, due to lack of lag, the grid system which eliminates a lot of necessary precision in some of the other ports, as well as the lack of the ability to change the spawn rate.

A speedrunner by the name NESCadinality has done a lot of the improvements in the NES version as of late.

His times are below:

Fun: 17:38 (WR is 17:12 by crasyfingers as of now).
Tricky: 36:32
Taxing: 40:08
Mayhem: 1:03:12

That's a sum of 2:37:30.

He also complete an All Levels run 3:08:30 a few days ago, so there is only a 31 minute difference between his sum of best 4 sections and his complete run. His run appears to be last time someone has completed the game, recorded, in one sitting for 5 years or so.

I'm still working on trying to improve my Fun / NES time, and would like to complete the next sections as well. Then I might towards doing some runs for the Game Boy port afterward, or get back to doing DOS.

Hey y'all. Been a while, but since the NES port has started to get a little traction. Just thought I'd give a little update on the few levels.

Nessy set a time on the Fun Levels a year ago at 18:38. It stood for a while, but a fellow that speedruns NES games (NESCardinality)  gave it a shot a couple weeks ago, and was able to shave a minute off the run to make the record 17:38. This morning, I verified another run by a player called crasyfingers. He shaved 26 seconds off the previous run, and now holds the record at 17:12. Looking at the run, it's pretty well optimized. Maybe a second or two could be saved on pulling things off a little differently. There's a couple levels where I can see minute differences of a few seconds with slightly different strategies, but unless some new strat is found on one of the levels, I can't see a sub-17 happening. I'd be interested if anyone can see a strategy that isn't currently utilized that might make a sub 17 possible.

There is no NES TAS in the TAS archives I can see to look at.

Quote from: ccexplore on November 25, 2018, 01:38:26 PM
Just want to mention that the Lemmings Arcade prototype might be even more ideal for a speedrun than NES.  While I don't think the lemmings in arcade prototype move quite as fast as on NES, the arcade prototype has only 67 levels and even more importantly, you only have to save a single lemming in any level to move onto the next.  And sometimes the levels are shortened as well (compared to original versions on Amiga/DOS) via repositioning of exits or entrances.  And yes, there are some unique and exploitable glitches that might be helpful here and there.

I'll have to check it out. I didn't even realize the prototype was complete enough to run.



On a side note, another SMS/Fun run was submitted today, cutting over 50% of the time off the previous run.

Quote from: The Tomato Watcher on November 19, 2018, 04:59:29 AM
Hey. It's me, the guy who sent in that Fun 12 speedrun of LAUGHABLE quality to speedrun.com . I'm just here to ask, "What was your initial reaction to that run?"

I wanna do more individual level speedruns like that, but, y'know, better in every way.

Ah, nothing too crazy. Some people submit their first runs to games I moderate, so it wasn't too shocking. People like to track their progression as well, so it makes it easier. Please feel free to submit more individual level runs. Gives me motivation to come back to get a better time.

Quote from: Proxima on October 27, 2018, 05:01:29 PM
That would be forum member Nessy, by the way.

Oh, nice. Truly badass stuff. Given the different level sizes, the rate at which the game runs and the reduced levels, 1:30 run on all the levels seems totally plausible, whereas I imagine anything under 5 hrs for the DOS version to be vaguely possible.

Hmm. Someone beat the Fun Levels on the NES in 18:38. Only 25 Levels on the NES, and the frame rate runs clearly much higher, with slightly smaller levels. Not perfectly optimized or anything, but impressive.

That'd be one hell of a verification process.

Someone submitted runs for Easy on SMS and NES. Not at all optimized, but impressive anyone even got through it given the platform.

Sorry, I've recently moved, so I was AWOL there for a bit. I'm not sure it's actually possible to do a 100% speedrun of the game. I realize glitches allow some of the non-100% levels to happen, but is it actually possible to 100% all 120 levels?

Also interesting the SNES version has a point system. I don't recall seeing that anywhere else.

So I did a very rough doubling of the video:

http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCFLCQ7A_bmU&start1=14&video2=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkg5sUosg4TQ&start2=5&authorName=nch

And it appears for the most part, the reason the SNES version is ahead in this case, is because the MSDOS run (something I forgot about it) isn't exploiting the ESC button, instead opting for suicides to end levels. So that's definitely the main reason.

Additionally, it does appear the SNES version moves slightly faster. The IGT is slightly quicker... maybe about 10% more so it seems. I noticed certain Lemming animations are also slightly faster (such as builder), the frame rate of the IGT probably matches the movement speeds of Lemmings.

So given that, it's actually somewhat of a testament to the MSDOS runner, because he was only a minute behind, and it appears it's at a slight time disadvantage. But the MSDOS runner had a far cleaner run. No retries, no use of pauses, where as the SNES run did (which is somewhat understandable if you are actually playing with a SNES controller). But the ESC likely saved something like 6-10 seconds a run, and over 30 levels, well...

First multi-level runs we use real-time, as, trying to figure out how to do a frame rule thing and then adjust times appropriately would... well be a nightmare. For level runs, we do use IGT. Maybe I will go through and add players level times, and that might help paint a better picture as well.