Time for the Koan Formatter!

Having The Buddha Nature:
  FLY
  NO
  NOT
  ON
  TO

Lacking The Buddha Nature:
  AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFANDONLYIF    KKNOT   OHNO
  AKOANHASTHEBUDDAHNATUREIFF            KNOT    OHNOMORELEMMINGS
  AKOANHASTHEBUDDHANATURE               N       ONOMATOPOEIA
  BLACKKOAN                             NKOT    OT
  BOW                                   NOKT    PEAS
  HONO                                  NOTK    TON
  HONOMORELEMMINGS                      NT      WHITEKOAN

Quote from: Simon on December 02, 2024, 07:23:16 PMIf you accept the downwards gain (you consider it clever)

N.B. I'd consider it clever if used as one single assignment in the context of a larger puzzle with several other assignments. It could be 'the trick to spot', if you like.

Anything requiring repeated assignments of Platformer > Digger > Platformer > Digger > Platfomer > Digger (I'm looking at you, nin10doadict ) would not be clever, and would simply be tedious and trollish. With that said, it would of course be an effective descent tactic, perhaps in the context of a challenge solution or something like that.

It's a matter of taste though; I don't mind builderfest levels, most people dislike them. And there will always be people that want to make those sorts of levels, even if just for fun. That's why it's absurd to try and prevent it (such as by limiting the scope of the Platformer skill); anyone determined enough to make troll levels will find a way to do so. Ergo, whilst a concern, it's certainly not a dealbreaker.

Quote from: Simon on December 02, 2024, 07:23:16 PMconsider to make it 4 pixels thick (not only 2) and embrace the new mechanic.

Hmm. Probably about 50/50 on this.

It could work in the context of larger surroundings (although the bricks would have to be huge during the placement animation as well):



However, I prefer the idea of it looking and feeling like the thin bars in Marble (and the similar grey ones in Fire):

as opposed to

Quote from: Silken Healer on December 02, 2024, 09:08:48 PMAKHTBN iff it's a proper English word and if it's a homophone it's the shortest possible of all the words it could sound like

BOW is shorter than BOUGH, has no shorter homophone, is a proper English word, and does not have the Buddha nature.

Having The Buddha Nature
FLY
NO
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
BOW
KNOT
KKNOT
NKOT
NOKT
NOTK
NT
OT
TON

Quote from: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 08:24:57 PMIt's tempting to make the obvious guess, but let's try something less obvious....

A koan has the Buddha-nature if it contains at most two of the letters {A, K, H, T, B, N}.

To choose a single counterexample from that group involving letters already in the white koans, NT does not have the Buddha nature.

Having The Buddha Nature
FLY
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
KNOT
KKNOT
NKOT
NOKT
NOTK
NT

Out of interest, what was "the obvious guess" going to be?

Quote from: Simon on December 02, 2024, 06:10:42 PMThe rule master may decline koans (and, by extension, batch-tests of koans) for being too far away from the spirit of the game.

I'll sleep over it, and then add that to the game rules.

Yes, we'll also likely get a sense of what's generally considered "in spirit" as we play more rounds with different rulemasters.

Quote from: Ramon on December 02, 2024, 05:29:35 PMAKHTBN if each consonant is adjacent to at least one vowel!

Alas, FLY contains no vowels and yet has the Buddha nature.

Having The Buddha Nature
FLY
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
KNOT
KKNOT
NKOT
NOKT
NOTK

Quote from: namida on December 02, 2024, 10:28:26 AMCurrently, no vertical movement is possible with platformers, but your change would enable that

Yes, good point. I was mostly concerned that thickening upwards would allows upwards movement, but of course thickening downwards similarly allows downwards movement. Definitely worth considering.

I was trying to find where it had been decided that the NL platformer should do neither (or at least that it shouldn't allow upwards movement), and although I couldn't explicitly find that, I did chance upon this thread. The gist of it is that mobius felt that the NL platformer should behave more like the L2/Lix platformer and allow upwards movement (amongst other things such as being more assignable).

With allowing upwards movement, it's a difficult call to make. I generally tend to prefer the idea of buffing rather than nerfing the skills, as I disagree strongly with the notion that the game engine should be tailored towards backroute prevention. However, the fact that the Platformer can't gain height makes it more nuanced and interesting; it means that the player has to decide carefully where to use Platformers as opposed to Builders, for example, and such a distinction can make creative level solving more fun. So, I tend to side with "don't allow upwards movement" - not for reasons of backroute prevention, but because what the skill loses in versatility it makes up for in uniqueness and puzzle value.

As for downwards movement, I probably would be similarly unconvinced by the backroute-prevention argument, but I can see the potential for fiddly levels requiring a single dig and then immediate cancellation in order to create downwards movement. Maybe not so bad (and in fact quite clever) if it's just the one assignment as part of a bigger puzzle, but having to make a full staircase like this would just be tedious and annoying.

Then again, it's already very possible to make tedious and annoying levels requiring constant use of framestepping and other player assists to put the solution together. There's not really any sensible way this sort of thing can be avoided wihtout stripping those tools from the game (which nobody wants, not even me). So, in that light, the question then becomes: is "tedious level avoidance" a strong enough reason not to implement something? I'd say it ends up being only slightly stronger a reason than backroute prevention, weakened by its inherent absurdity.

I'd like to get other people's thoughts on this. I was playing L2 the other day and I just instinctively prefer the appearance of the thicker Platformer. The 1px platform can look a bit odd and un-game-like at times, like a line sketch rather than a fully finised drawing.

So, the conversation is open. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome. I'd particularly be interested to know mobius's current opinions on the NL platformer now that a few years have passed with it being in regular use.

Quote from: Proxima on December 02, 2024, 01:07:40 PMI'm sorry. I didn't want to start an argument or anything.

No problem, it's all good it's been highlighted a couple of times recently that the rule master should be able to decline any guess they consider not to be in the spirit of the game, or at least ask the player to revise their guess. Maybe we can proceed with that in mind going forward.

@Simon - if people agree, maybe this could be added to the rules in the OP?

Anyways. New round, then!

Having The Buddha Nature
NOT

Lacking The Buddha Nature
KNOT

Quote from: namida on December 02, 2024, 08:01:25 AMit would become possible to slightly move downwards this way. This could especially be of concern in the case of ceilings that are *just* too low to platform under, or falls that are *just* fatal.

Are you thinking in terms of possible backroutes, or annoyingly fiddly levels? Or both?

Main reasons:

+ It's more substantial
+ It's closer to the L2 Platformer in appearance

Currently, if there are no replies to this post, this will be implemented as shown in the screenshot (i.e. an extra pixel's width, thickened downwards from the existing 1px platform). Whilst there is potential for the Platformer becoming a height-gaining skill if we thicken it upwards (as in L2's Platformer physics), it's probably more interesting game-wide to keep it as a non-height-gaining skill.

The sprite will also be updated to be holding 2px-wide bricks.

Thoughts?

Quote from: Silken Healer on December 01, 2024, 03:43:05 AM

Quote from: WillLem on December 01, 2024, 03:31:52 AMJeez, I can't even play Zendo without causing some sort of fuss

I think Proxima meant that he was concerned that wildcards weren't in the spirit of Zendo in general, not that he was upset over this spesific round. Please don't get into a quarrel .

That comment was meant as a joke (I've edited the post to make that clear). Things like that don't always come across on the Forums. There's no quarrel, it's all good, we're all buddies! Hugs

Anyway, I just felt a bit bad that Proxima was enjoying being rulemaster and it ended a bit quickly because my somewhat controversial guessing tactic pretty much gave away the rule. So, I think he should be given the opportunity to play as rulemaster again with the agreement that we won't make those sorts of guesses (at least for this round).

Going forward, we could agree that it's always up to the rulemaster to accept or reject such guesses in their round. That way, we don't have to worry about lots of extra rules and it can just be... whatever the rulemaster is happy to accept.

Quote from: Proxima on December 01, 2024, 02:34:04 AMI just think it's not in the spirit of the game if you guess 78 koans at once in the very early stages when people are still making the first connections and spotting the first threads

Jeez, I can't even play Zendo without causing some sort of fuss <--- (N.B. This is meant as a light-hearted joke, I don't actually think this is true)

OK, fair enough, let's agree not to allow those sorts of guesses any more. It hasn't really been an issue so far (Ramon's round went on for over a week despite several of those sorts of guesses!), but I can absolutely see how, in your round, that guessing tactic basically gave away the rule. In fairness to Silken though, he managed to spot the rule and I didn't.

I have a great idea for a rule, but I think Proxima should go again and this time let's agree first to only guess actual, fully-written-out koans as opposed to conceptual guesses such as those that generate multiple koans at once.

Quote from: Proxima on November 30, 2024, 11:05:44 PMAlready? The round had just started

In fairness, that guess has shown that alternate alphabet letters is important, as is odd and even numbers of letters. It tends to give a lot of information in one go, so it actually makes sense to do it as soon as possible.

With that said, it hasn't revealed the rule so far in any round!

OK then, here are some more interesting guesses:

CAT
RABBIT
OSTRICH
ALIEN

PACIFIC
INDIAN
ATLANTIC
ARCTIC

Hmm. OK then, we need to start ruling letters out.

(*)
(**)
(***)

Where * is each letter of the alphabet, so:

A
AA
AAA

Then the same for B, C, D, etc. This can be expressed as:

(*) is white for (letters)
(**) is white for (letters)
(***) is white for (letters)

Quote from: Silken Healer on November 30, 2024, 09:23:02 PM480x480 is still quite small. I don't know why it had to change at all. It just seems like an unnessercary change. It's just extra user inconvenience to make them downsize it when it worked fine before the upgrade though.

Agreed. It was likely a default change when moving over to the new SMF rather than something that was decided.

AKHBN iff it begins with C or T