Quote from: kaywhyn on November 16, 2020, 02:14:50 AM
Wow, so nice to hear from the author of his pack that originally started from Cheapo. It's like I came back to play this pack that's now available for NL at just the right time and you happened along to see that someone recently played your pack. You should definitely feel honored that your pack continues to live on due to how it got converted to NL. This honor goes to namida for converting the pack and making it playable in very old formats NL.

I was still subscribed to this thread so it was cool to see more replies. Namida did an amazing job converting my old level pack, I'm very grateful. I made them using a very basic level editor. Testing and organizing levels was not smooth at all, so there are some blunders like the two nearly identical Armatage Shanks levels.

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 16, 2020, 02:14:50 AM
I myself am glad this pack is available for NL, as I absolutely agree that this pack of yours is very high quality due to the many awesome levels and definitely deserves to be made playable in more modern engines. Most importantly, it's a very approachable pack for many since it stays quite easy throughout, even in the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. I definitely felt no real challenge until late into the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. That's not a bad thing at all. I love packs of any difficulty.

Thanks! If I start playing again I'm definitely looking for the easier packs to start with.

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 16, 2020, 02:14:50 AM
Since this was also brought up in recent discussions, do you have any plans to fix up the pack, or at least convert and make it available for the most recent New Formats NL? Seems like plenty of people here would love to see the pack playable in much more modern NL versions, as the one the pack is available and playable on is extremely outdated and no longer has any support in terms of fixing up bugs.

No plans, but if I had the time I'd choose to recreate/redesign all of the old Copycat levels using the standard graphic styles. Basically start each level from scratch and keep a similar solution, or rework it as necessary. Just have to learn the new level editor and take it slow (if I find some time...)

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 14, 2020, 08:46:25 PM
I don't get the point of Taxing 5 - More armatage shanks, the repeat of Tricky 16 - Armatage shanks, since the solutions are exactly the same.

Thanks for the review and level replays kaywhyn! I figured out what to download and how to watch your replays.
The two Armatage Shanks levels were more difficult when the bombers had to count down from 5. The second copy probably required perfect timing, but now with instant explosions it's much easier.

Quote from: Ron_Stard on May 06, 2016, 01:24:00 PM
It seems that Taxing 14 has the same kind of solution, too (6:51 to 7:19 on beyond):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBmNX9czuDg

Thanks for the report. Hopefully that level can also be fixed by just changing the tool counts. A fix is in the works.

Quote from: McAleeCh on August 20, 2015, 12:16:13 PM
As I recall, I don't think Cheapo was available online when we started making levels - certainly if it was then it wasn't easily findable. All we knew of it was some screenshots on the creator's website. I seem to recall my brother eventually e-mailing the creator (who I see also frequents these forums - hi!) and asking if we could have a copy to play around with, though no idea if I'm remembering correctly there!

Hi! I still have the last email from you from 2001. You guys were producing a lot of cool stuff.

Around 1997 I programmed the Copycat Lemmings game, but years before I had enough programming skills for that, I would just doodle Lemmings levels during school. Here is a link to levels I drew in the early nineties before there were level editors:
http://1drv.ms/1S0pzLu

The attached file is one example.

Besides some level doodles, that link also has some notes I made while programming Copycat Lemmings. Back then the best way to store data was on paper.

Quote from: namida on April 06, 2015, 05:55:41 AM
At first it'll just support importing from extracted styles (via Essman's style extractor), but if it's not too difficult to do, I very well may look into directly importing from STY files.

If you need the details on how to load STY binary files, the code to do it is in the style extractor:
https://github.com/spadapet/cheapstyle/blob/master/CheapStyle/Style.cs

Quote from: namida on April 02, 2015, 11:54:04 AM
Copycat Lemmings is actually a great idea. I haven't played the majority of it in such a long time, so it'll be virtually like a vanilla playthrough.

I've been watching your videos and really enjoy them. Of course I'd like to see the Copycat levels being played to see how the conversion went, and to bring back memories of making them. It'd be interesting to see how they hold up after all these years.

(also, I could keep a list of bugs in levels and fix them if possible)

Quote from: namida on March 08, 2015, 12:20:04 PM
Mayhem 25, I can only assume that some mechanics difference between Cheapo and NeoLemmix (most likely relating to builders) makes this level much harder in NeoLemmix than it originally was. I'd try it out on genuine Copycat Lemmings if my computer didn't run it really slow...

There is a difference in builder head-hitting physics. Here is an attached picture of the intended solution for Mayhem 25.
The builder was supposed to hit his head after building two steps, not one.

Quote from: Akseli on March 08, 2015, 12:15:33 PM
When was this pack released for cheapo in the first place?
Thanks for this playing experience, guys!

I created these levels in 1998 for a DOS Lemmings clone game that I made, before I wrote Cheapo. Thanks to namida for converting these levels and getting them playable again.

Quote from: Akseli on March 08, 2015, 12:15:33 PM
- Though at least in the last rating I pondered in almost every level if I backrouted it in some way because of saving lots of spare skills and lemmings. Otherwise difficulty curve was pretty nice through the game.

Backroutes are not surprising. By now people have figured out lots of tricks to backroute levels in ways that I couldn't imagine back then. As long as it's fun though.

Thanks for the comments!

Quote from: namida on February 25, 2015, 07:31:56 PM
Cheapo includes the ONML tilesets, but unlike the Orig ones, they're not remade, they're just copied straight from ONML.

I drew my own version of the original styles because I didn't know how to take screenshots of a DOS game and use the graphics in my own code. I even drew all the lemming animations myself, pixel by pixel.

Quote from: namida on February 25, 2015, 04:49:11 AM
We had a recent discussion about the possibility of new clones, and the general consensus was summed up nicely by an XKCD comic about standards... still, if you can see a space that no existing clone fills (nor is willing to fill) it may be worthwile. (it also has to be considered that this topic involved someone saying "hey, I have these wonderful ideas, you should all make them", not "I'm going to make this...", so there is that difference)

But whether it's on a new engine, or a currently-existing one, I'd definitely love to see more levels from you!

My goal wouldn't be to make one game to rule them all, or to even be compatible with any existing games. My career is software programming and I often work on personal projects, so I would work on something for myself and release it when it's ready. My previous project was a space invaders "clone" available on my site:
http://www.ferretfacegames.com/

Now I'm thinking of a Lemmings-like game... I'll post a link to that site in the future if something is available.

Quote from: Giga on February 24, 2015, 11:54:50 PM
I wonder if there could be a Oh no more copycat lemmings

Well... maybe. I sure hope so. After all these years I haven't lost interest in lemmings (although I don't play much anymore, mostly read and watch videos) and I haven't lost interest in writing a new better clone game. It would take a while, but maybe.. 

On Fun 1, the lemmings get stuck in the bottom left corner because they won't fall off the screen walking left. I think I had them walk off the screen and die in the clones. Not 100% sure though.

Anyway, I wonder if I can still beat my own levels. It would be funny to record myself playing the levels (just need the time).

Quote from: namida on February 21, 2015, 02:52:24 PM
That being said, if there's any other differences you know of off-hand that may affect the levels significantly, let me know so I can account for them sooner rather than later.

I don't remember anything detailed about the physics in those games 
But I do have the source code for the games. Even though it's really poorly written uncommented beginner C++, I can do research to answer detailed questions about the physics. Or I can give you the code as necessary. But just playing the old games in an emulator or something is the best way to see how they worked.

Quote from: namida on February 21, 2015, 02:33:58 PM
Uploaded attempt 6. This reverts the conversion of trap trigger areas to the way it was handled in the older versions (ie: same trigger area but moved down one pixel, to account for the difference in where Cheapo checks for trigger areas vs where NeoLemmix checks for them), with a manual tweak to the bear trap in the dirt style as this seems to have a difference between Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo. There's also a tweak to Fun 12 to set the bear trap there to No Overwrite just as it was in Copycat Lemmings; this is again a Copycat/Cheapo difference.

I apologize for the bugs and differences in those games. Sorry that you have to deal with them now, but I really appreciate this work. Playing these levels again is really fun!