Quote from: Proxima on April 13, 2024, 03:15:02 AM

Quote from: Tygerboi on April 13, 2024, 12:29:43 AM
Bearing in mind that NL and SL have many of the features (and many more) of L2/L3, is there any particular reason why neither game has been fully ported?

For a very simple reason. The original game has eight skills; Lemmings 2 has fifty-one. To incorporate L2 into a modern clone would involve coding and bugfixing all those skills and a correspondingly huge number of possible interactions between them
...
This is a huge amount of work for very little reward, since the main purpose of modern clones is to be a tool for level design...

Surely bringing the Lemmings mania to a modern platform to provide a unified, enhanced engine/playing experience for both the old/original levels that Lemmings fans knew and loved, as well as the exciting new levels and skills, is just as important as the level design coding itself?

Yes, I can see that that a full integration of the original L2/L3 games would be a major commitment of both time and technical expertise that would not be justifiable.  However, WillLem stated that:

Quote from: WillLem on April 09, 2024, 01:37:59 PM
Unfortunately, neither L2 nor L3 has been fully ported to any of the modern clones yet. However, SuperLemmix features the style sets, sprites and other assets from these games, and fan-made levels have been created using them.

The engine also features the Jumper, Stacker, Shimmier, Slider, Swimmer, Platformer, Fencer and Laserer skills which are all very close to their L2 counterparts. Furthermore, SuperLemmix has also introduced the Ballooner, Ladderer, Spearer and Grenader, which are reminiscent of various other L2 skills.

Bearing all of the above in mind, would having a level set in SuperLemmix, divided into groups named for each of the L2 tribes, that visually resembled the L2 levels, had the same music/sfx, etc but just using the closest equivalent skills that are already available in SLX - thus avoiding extensive new skill coding/interaction coding/testing - be a feasible option?  A "Lemmings 2: The Tribes - SLX Edition" level set, if you will.  The bulk of the work then would be recreating the levels themselves and SLX-tweaking them as required.  Again, that is  lot of work, but would be a good compromise to be able to bring Lemmings 2 into the 'SLX family'   I don't know if a similar plan would work for L3 as I have hardly ever played that, and not for many years.

OK, this is still happening in v2.7.3 (screenshot attached).  I have been able to replicate this numerous times now.  It seems to occur when I browse through the different level pack/groups, expanding and then contracting different levels in the tree structure on the left.  It will work fine to start with, then will temporarily freeze/lock up, and the level select window will get the "...(Not Responding)" message in the title bar.  Then it will refresh and become functional again, but with the lemming hand cursor.  If I close the level select window and then reopen it, the cursor reverts back to the Windows mouse cursor again.  Sometimes (less frequently though) when it stops responding it kills SLX entirely, and I have to completely restart it.  This happened when I was testing immediately prior to posting this message.


I am running Windows 10 Pro v22H2 on an Aspire E15 E5-552 (SNID: 54000963676) laptop with 8GB RAM and AMD Radeon R6 on-board graphics, 40GB+ free HD space.  I have no other open apps (apart from MS Edge as I had this page open) and all latest drivers/Windows Updates, etc are installed.  Since I originally posted this issue I have cleared my system and user profile Temp folders, and have obviously shut down/rebooted numerous times.  I do have NordVPN running, but even when I have closed this and all of its associated services (and the same for my AV app), the issue with SLX level select occurs.


It's not a major game-busting issue, and is easy enough to work around, but still is a little frustrating.  I will test again on my desktop PC, which is also running the same version of Windows, with a loosely similar spec - for this issue and the panel issue I raised - to see if I can replicate the issues on there, and then let you know.

Sorry for replying this way, but I've been having problems replying to WillLem's reply on 26/04/2024 with it shrinking the text size of my responses down to about size 1, so is only readable at 500x zoom!  Also, the preview button/Alt-P doesn't actually show me a preview.
Anyway, on with my reply:

Quote from: WillLem
I'd suggest that only the "off-screen and vital" stuff should go in the panel display - everything else can simply be displayed on-screen adjacent to the relevant lemming/item as it is in WinLemm/SLToo.

I agree with that, as the on-screen ones will be harder to miss, and it would be helpful having them over the relevant lemming.

Quote from: WillLem

Quote from: jkapp76
Will the text just stay for a couple seconds and then disappear?

Yes. And, if in the panel, it will be clickable-to-remove.

Why click-to-remove the panel display messages?  Wouldn't this potentially cause confusion if, say, a builder off-screen starts to run out of bricks so a message is generated but then stays there until the message is clicked, but you also have initiated another builder or two elsewhere that may happen to be off-screen, and you have the sound off, how will you be able to tell whether the visual prompt in the panel is an old one that you forgot to click to clear, or a current one that needs immediate action?  Also, would there ben enough panel space for multiple messages with directional indicators to be displayed simultaneously?  All of these off-screen activities that need prompts are all time-sensitive in that you have to either let the lemming go or else reassign a task within 3-5 seconds, so the warning prompts might as well also only be displayed for 3-5 seconds, like their on-screen counterparts.  Having to remember to click off messages during the heat of the moment is also a "passive" (i.e. doesn't directly affect the gameplay) player task that could result in missing the timing for assigning a lemming skill at exactly the right moment, or something along those lines, unless the pause button was extensively used.  Which reminds me - if you have a visual prompt on-screen over a lemming (e.g. "chink!") and the pause button is pressed whilst its on-screen, will that also stop the message disappearing until the pause is released, or will it still time-out and disappear?  I'd prefer the first option - pause game also pauses on-screen/panel message time-out countdown - as it could potentially help with planning how to complete a level.  It may also be useful for taking screenshots.

I completely agree about the Amiga version being the "original" (or "OG")  version from which all subsequent versions and expansion/alternative levels were inspired.  That is undeniable fact.  I was also an A500+ (and shortly thereafter an A1200) owner back in 1991/2 when the Lemmings were unleashed upon the world, although I did also play on the slightly-technically-improved Acorn Archimedes version at secondary school.  As far as I can recall, the Archie had no extra/different levels though.


I like the name "Multiverse Lemmings" (being a sci-fi fan).  Would it perhaps be better to merge all of the Playstation-specific levels (PSP and PS3) into one single"Playstation Levels" pack as there are collectively 79 levels.  With one extra level added (perhaps a variation of one of the existing PS levels) you could then have four 20-level Fun/Tricky/Taxing/Mayhem groups as with the other level packs.


This would then leave 84 'additional' levels in the new ""Yippee! Even More Lemmings" pack (I like that name too, btw) which could be divided up into four groups (F/Tr/Ta/M) of 21 levels   Perhaps not quite as numerically neat as your suggestion, but if you're thinking of adding in extra/variation levels for the "Multiverse Lemmings", then surely what's good for the goose is good for the gander?  In this line of thinking, and since "Yippee..." would be an expansion pack in the same way that 'Oh No! More Lemmings' is (effectively) an expansion pack, maybe having five level groups as in ONML, i.e. Tame, Crazy, Wild, Wicked Havoc.  However, 84/5=16.8 so it would need four more variation levels per group to make it work nicely - 20 levels per group, as ONML has got, in fact.


Regarding your suggestions for the nature of the variation levels, and in light of the above suggestions, could options 1 and 3 not be combined for the Yippee variations?  That would effectively 'remaster' existing levels with a new look and feel, with different level music (ONML music) from their original incarnations, without actually introducing any entirely new levels.  One Option 3 variation possibility could be maybe doing a 'Reverse Lemmings'-style entrance/exit location swap with skill tweaks as necessary?

Quote from: Proxima on May 11, 2024, 02:38:09 AM
There is only one Mac-specific level, "Going Their Separate Ways", which replaces "All the 6's" as Tricky 21.

OK, thanks for the info! 

Quote from: Proxima on April 24, 2024, 03:17:08 PM
All I will say is that I strongly oppose "Bonus" as the title for this pack or any of its subfolders. I know we had this discussion already in NL, but there it was my decision so I didn't feel obliged to lay out my reasons

This folder contains levels from various versions of Lemmings, such as "Going Their Separate Ways" from the Mac version. In their source games, they are regular levels that you would encounter in the normal course of play just like any other level. Granted, they have been regrouped in NL (and SLX) because the main Lemmings / Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem folders contain only the Amiga levels, but they are not bonus levels.

I don't know if I ever made a final decision on the folder name for these levels in NL... currently on my installation the folder is "Misc Levels", which is okay I guess.

I also agree about not using the name "bonus", but also agree about "Misc" not being great either.  I always thought that "Save the Lemmings" in SLT was a bit lame, as saving the lemmings is the entire raison d'être of ALL the Lemmings levels/games (apart from PD spin-offs such as "Operation Lemming") but will have a think about a better name, and if anything comes to mind, I will post back here.


Just out of interest, how many levels are there in SLX that are vanilla Mac levels?  If there are enough to make it worthwhile, wouldn't it be better to move them into a "Mac Lemmings" level set along with the "NES Lemmings", "ZX Spectrum Levels", etc inside the 'Lemmings Extra' group?  I have never played the Mac version of Lemmings, so I'm assuming that most of the levels are the same as the Amiga version but with a few variations?  Or are the majority/many of the levels different? If the latter, could these Mac-specific levels all be brought into SLX as this would help to populate an aforementioned "Mac Lemmings" group? As with the other format groups, this one would obviously still be organised into Fun, Tricky, Taxing, Mayhem folders.  I realise that this could be a massive ask if there are a lot of unique Mac levels not already in SLX, but, in the interests of definitive completeness....


Actually, on the subject of completeness, are there any (other) level packs that were created for SLT which could be successfully converted to/imported into SLX, that could then be included in this "Misc"-yet-to-be-named group?

I am liking the ideas put forward here by Herby and others.  I did find the "chink" vfx very useful in the past when I have played WinLemm and SLT with the sound off - for example, in the living room whilst the children are watching TV, if there's also a conversation going on in the room, but could also maybe be if SLX was played whilst in a public location such as on public transport, a hospital waiting room, etc.


I didn't think the "chink" text looked too bad.  Maybe if text vfx were implemented, there could be an option to either have them turned off (default), turned on on their own, or turned on with symbol vfx, although the last option may not work very well (having both activated) unless the symbol vfx that had equivalent text vfx were disabled if both were activated.  That sounds like it  would be very fiddly though, so options for either text, or symbol or none, would be the best solution?


That idea for off-screen vfx to the left and right of the screen is fab!  Could be very useful for sound-off/hard-of-hearing situations,  The only thing that could be an issue is the vfx obscuring what is occurring on the viewable screen area.  For instance, if a builder was building a bridge near the edge of the screen whilst another builder was nearing the end of the 12-brick run off the screen on the same side, and there was also other on-screen activity going on that produced vfx, it could all start to get too cluttered/confusing.  One way around that might be to have different colour vfx for off-screen and on-screen (as possibly implied by one of the screen mock-ups).
It might be pretty cool too if, for the builder vfx, if three bars would appear when three bricks remain, two bars, when two, one when one, then the exclamation mark when the builder is about to give up and walk on.
Is there really any point in a "Let's Go" vfx?  It's already visually indicated when lemmings start to fall out of the entries because you can see lemmings falling out of them   Still, if it's optional and not too difficult to implement alongside other vfx, then why not, I guess.


The timing issue for off-screen effects seemed to work just fine in WinLemm and SuperLemminiToo, although in both cases they are only audio not visual.  Does having the visual element as well make the timing process much more difficult, then? 

Quote from: WillLem on April 22, 2024, 09:18:58 PM
OK, thanks Jeremy.

Come to think of it, I think I remember something like this happening when I very first implemented the Amiga cursor, but haven't had it happen in a long time and I'm also struggling to get it to happen.

@Tygerboi - which version of SLX are you using?

I was actually using v2.7.1.  I have just realised that you're now up to 2.7.3, so have just downloaded that, and the styles pack, so will update my installation and then get back to you with the info you asked for, if the problem recurs.

That is a fine solution, and it looks great, in the blue!

OK, thanks for the advice.  I am a big fan of well organised filing systems as it makes it so much easier to find things.  It's one of my biggest annoyances about Android - files just seem to get scattered all over my phone by different apps, instead of all photos in one folder (with relevant subfolders of course), all sound files in another folder structure, all apps installed into an apps folder.  Windows 10/11 are much better than previous versions in this regard.


I have downloaded the ogg converter and will try that out once I have some suitable audio files.

Well, thanks again for all of your support and advice.  It makes a refreshing change to have such positive technical support interaction instead of just a standard dismissive response (or even no response) that I have often had from tech support teams in the past.  You obviously have the same philosophy as I did as a former IT field/servicedesk technician; you actually want to try and help people resolve their issues instead of just running through a script (like a certain UK-based ISP/home media provider that shall remain unnamed).  I've also had a similarly high quality of service from the Zynga support team in relation to Words With Friends on Android, but you have beaten even them!      I shall now get back to actually playing and enjoying SuperLemmix.


Oh, just one more thing:  will there ever be a port of SLX for the Amiga, so that the Lemmings can return to their ancestral homes? 
That might sound like a daft question, given that Amigas stopped being produced about 30 years ago, but there is still a very active online community, and many companies selling Amiga hardware upgrades, new games, etc.  I bet an AGA-chipset-based Amiga (A1200/A4000) with a few of the low-cost contemporary RAM, CPU and CF/SD 'hard drive' upgrades would easily be able to do justice to SuperLemmix.  Distributed as a 'WHDLoad' hard drive installer package rather than on floppy disks, of course.

Hi again,

OK, I have double-checked my laptop screen resolution and the highest it will go is 1366x768.  The next step below that is 1280x720, then 1024x768.  I run it in 1366x768 all the time.  I do not have any issues within Windows with anything being too small.  I tried the executable file 'compatibility settings' DPI modifications that you suggested, but  unfortunately that made no difference, even after "resetting windows" in SLX settings.

It isn't so much that the in-game icons are too small for me to see them clearly, it's more that there seemed to be a lot of empty space to the left, and right of the minimap.  I have found during gameplay that the small size of the icons makes it much easier to click the wrong one by mistake when skills have to be selected very quickly (without using the pause key).  There is a minor issue with clarity of the icon graphic when they're too small, but with enough time I would no doubt become familiar enough with them for this not to be too much of an issue.  Although that could take a while with all the extra skills available

I have tried, as you suggested, turning off the minimap, which definitely filled the entire width of the panel/screen.  The two attached screen photos show the results.

The first photo has the map off and the default zoom level set to 1x, for both 'zoom' and 'panel'.  The main level area is then too small (zoomed out, although this can be adjusted with my mouse scroll wheel) but the panel is filling the entire width of the screen, now almost too large, if anything.

The second photo is with the default zoom level set to 2x for 'zoom' and 1x for 'panel' - changing the panel zoom has no effect.  This is the most ideal way for me to configure this that I can find, after a bit of experimentation.  The panel still feels a little too big, but much better than it was in my earlier photos, with the minimap enabled.  I will probably stick with this from now on, on this laptop, unless future modifications to SuperLemmix require tweaking these settings.

I do appreciate that my laptop is now a little long in the tooth and doesn't support 1920x1080, which would be ideal.  I will have to look into upgrading it soon.

I will also try playing SLX on my desktop PC - which is older, but I have a really good 1080p IPS monitor, and run Windows 10 in 1920x1080.  I expect that I'll get more favourable results on that.

Quote from: WillLem on April 16, 2024, 11:31:12 PM

Quote from: Tygerboi on April 15, 2024, 12:33:52 AM
5) A "bye-bye" lemming voice sound effect when exiting the game instead of the current sound effect.

You're welcome to replace the default sound effect to whatever you like by simply swapping out the "bye.ogg" file in SLX/sounds for something else that you prefer. The player supports most audio files (MP3, Wav, Ogg, etc). Just make sure to also title the replacement sound "bye", and it will cue as normal in place of the default.

So if I had a wav file that had the desired sound effect, I'd just need to rename it to "Bye.wav" and SLX would use it in place of the "bye.ogg" file, if the ogg file wasn't detected?  I don't actually have one atm, but I remember Worms Reunited had a sound effect of a worm saying "bye-bye" just before it died (I think) which could easily pass as a lemming voice, so may hunt that down at some point and try that.

Thank you again for your quick responses; much appreciated.  Those modifications you described would be brilliant!

Quote from: WillLem on April 16, 2024, 11:30:47 PM
I'd be happy to update the compilation to gather the more incidental bonus levels such as these together in one place
...
Do people think this is a good idea? Or, would people prefer for these levels to remain separately grouped?

Yes, that sounds like a fab idea!